Another Postal Match Idea - AR Platform Only

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 17 December 2016

I started a phone conversation with John Alexander by asking if any AR platform only, matches had been held in the past or if he had seen many members competing with them, the answer  was no and I can't think of any. Which leads me to this idea and some thoughts. First, what is the most popular rifle platform today, the AR of course. As many members already know, we are a aging organization. In order to continue and become a bigger & stronger CBA, then we need to overcome the stagnant membership level. Younger shooters are drawn to ARs for several reasons, but the main two are cost & coolness. As some of you are aware of from some of my other posts & the CBA blog, we are moving toward becoming more of a presence in social media, ie. Facebook, Google+, YouTube and Twitter. As we do, offering matches that cater more to their interests, we are likely to garner them as new members. 

So my proposal is to offer AR-15 platform only postal matches. I am willing to help manage this match and am looking for input as to what to offer. Initial thoughts are to allow all calibers, but break them up into maybe two sub-categories for scoring. Feed me some ideas and I will put it together. 

But make sure to vote on the poll I will set up in the General Poll Category, comments are not enough, we need actual votes to make it a reality.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys & Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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SierraHunter posted this 17 December 2016

I think three categories. Super sonic, subsonic, and a big bore And then split those into iron sight/0 zoom Optics and then magnified Optics.

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45 2.1 posted this 18 December 2016

You guys are going to be surprised just what can be done with an AR. I would suggest you put a break somewhere around 6,5mm to 270 as a divide in classes also.

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6pt-sika posted this 19 December 2016

I'm curiouse as to whether cast bullets are gonna be an issue in an AR's gas system namely the block and tube ?

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6pt-sika posted this 19 December 2016

I've got an AR in 450 Bushmaster I've been contemplating shooting cast .

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 19 December 2016

In my experience with SKSs, Mini-14s, & just a little w/ ARs, it is not a problem. Also from everything I've read it takes a lot of rounds before starting to foul the gas system. The only issue I experienced was with some lead deposits in the flash hider on the Mini-14s.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys & Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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Tom Acheson posted this 19 December 2016

Godd idea!

I know nothing about them. Is there merit in thinking about another Military rifle? Iron sights. We added a “big bore” category to the Military game, why not these guns? The key with the present Military game is the use of the word surplus. Issue is also key to the allowed equipment.

While many of us don't get involved with this type of gun, it would an avenue to get new YOUNG blood into our ranks! And who knows, maybe after hanging around with the old guys, some of these new guys might move over to the present guns and events.

One step at a time.....initial Postal, formal Postal, BR matches....

 

Tom

 

 

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R. Dupraz posted this 19 December 2016

"While many of us don't get involved with this type of gun, it would an avenue to get new YOUNG blood into our ranks! And who knows, maybe after hanging around with the old guys, some of these new guys might move over to the present guns and events"

 

Negative!  Not at the expense of polluting the integrity of the Military class. Adding the big bore is not a relevant  justification because, for example the the 45-70 Trapdoor was issued to the military and surplussed to the public. As were several other types and calibers that I can think of.

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SierraHunter posted this 19 December 2016

The Trapdoor is the only as issued military rifle I have right now. If I rmwere to shoot military class it would be with the trapdoor.

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 28 December 2016

My thoughts on this match will start as an informal postal. AR platform only, not part of the military class. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys & Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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Scearcy posted this 28 December 2016

+1  on keeping it simple initially.  Most ARs are 223 of course. There also are a fair number of 300 BLK.  I have only seen 1 450 Bushmaster and while it is interesting, it does not appear to be the cartridge of choice for the younger shooters we covet.  These are not military rifles (perhaps the 223 and 300 BLK)  These are replicas.  Put them in their own class and see if anyone participates before we worry about sub classes.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 December 2016

mr. scearcy mentions a good point to think about :

the AR are a replica , not a military weapon .   so is this a military replica class ?  or confined to something with an AR in the model description  ... ?

hmmm ... are replicas of other military weapons ...  commercial FAL ... current mfg. AK ... SKS ... SAIGA ... in the same match ... ?

**********

my dog says to limit  the range of AR classes at first mainly because most established postals draw only 4 or 8 shooters ... need to keep the numbers up ..... and hope that the match draws so many shooters it will require subdivisions later .

**************

i wonder if it would be interesting to require a load that cycles the action ?? ... , kinda like practical power levels ?? ...

i also wonder if members that don't have an AR should be offering ideas ... such as me, for instance ... heh ..

ken

 

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R. Dupraz posted this 28 December 2016

FWIW from a non owner, In the interest of attracting shooters to the CBA, I think the original idea of starting something that the AR shooters could participate against each other in is a good one. For the first time around, why not make it as simple as possible and see what shakes out

 

Make it a dedicated class

Shoot what you have as long as it's an AR. Similar to the break open pistol class

 Maybe divide scope and irons, or maybe not.

No requirement as to how it's fired, single or semiauto, shooters choice. ie M-1 Garand in the military matches.

All other CBA requirements apply, rests, cast bullets etc.

 

Then, afterwards, the scores and equipment lists could be looked at to see if things need to be altered or not.

 

Get them shooing first!

 

 

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45 2.1 posted this 29 December 2016


i wonder if it would be interesting to require a load that cycles the action ?? ... , kinda like practical power levels ?? ...

i also wonder if members that don't have an AR should be offering ideas ... such as me, for instance ... heh ..

ken

 

It is a semi-auto firearm......... loads that operate the action should be a requirement. ( the AR, in any format, is an ornery firearm to operate with out a single shot mag device as a single shot.) Letting the bolt down on a chambered round in competition has some draw backs if you don't understand how to do it correctly.

As to whether anyone that doesn't own an AR giving advice.... well, that person doesn't really know what one is capable of,,,,now does he! Everyone here will be surprised what a well put up AR can do, semi-auto, with cast.

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 29 December 2016

I am not that concerned about the functioning as much as I am accuracy. Rounds can be feed via the magazine and ejected manually. The first match(s) will be informal postal, rules can change if it becomes popular enough to become a regular postage match.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys & Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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ZEBULUN18 posted this 06 January 2017

Sounds like a great idea to me. I hope to have a 300 black out built by the time the ugly weather stops.

"Any government that would attempt to disarm its people is despotic; and any people that would submit to it deserve to be slaves."-- Stephen F. Austin, 1835

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6pt-sika posted this 11 January 2017

"While many of us don't get involved with this type of gun, it would an avenue to get new YOUNG blood into our ranks! And who knows, maybe after hanging around with the old guys, some of these new guys might move over to the present guns and events"

 

I'm no advocate of the boom boom boomers that visit all gun clubs with a couple AR's in 5.56 or 223 and a can or two of ammo then proceed to shoot it all up in a session . And to be honest I'd never owned one until about two months before the latest presidential election . And I will admit any inclination I had to buy one was fueled with the thought that if Killary won I could turn it over and make a profit . Now with that being said I now own an AR-10 with two uppers and three complete AR-15's all in a different caliber of which NONE are 22 cal . I hunted with them some this past season . The 6.8 SPC worked very well on the buck I shot with it , as did the AR-10 308 and my AR-15 in 450 Bushmaster . But to be honest I didn't expect any less then what they did .

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 20 January 2017

Right now Palmetto State Armory has some really good “Shot Show” specials right now on complete kits less lowers and some uppers. Lowers are less than $50.00 so with specials complete rifles can be had for just over $400. I have two PSA rifles that I built, one with “blemished” parts (after 2 years I still don't know where the blemishes are) and from the first shot they have never missed a beat. No I don't have stock in PSA, I just like passing on a good product. 

http://palmettostatearmory.com/deals/shot-show-deals.html?trk_msg=EK6V2CC6RUQ4F4HN5VU1GREKQO&trk_contact=TJVRGTEUN3E102ILMDVPFPQQ7O&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=http%3a%2f%2fpalmettostatearmory.com%2fdeals%2fshot-show-deals.html&utm_campaign=Daily+Deal+Email&utm_content=5%3a00+Email

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys & Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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JeffinNZ posted this 27 January 2017

I absolutely see the merit.  The difficulty will be settling on categories given the 'Lego' nature of these rifles.  No two are the same any more.  Is there such a thing as “as issued” now? 

I wonder if the best approach is to categorise by calibre.   .224cal, 6.8mm, .300cal for example.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Scearcy posted this 27 January 2017

I have been casually looking for an “AR” lately.  Yesterday I was in two of  the LGS. I did not see a single AR with a barrel length other than 16". The rifle from the 60s and 70s with which many of us have experience is growing extinct.  Does this impact the validity of an AR class?  Certainly not! Its just an observation.  Are these replicas of the M4 platform?

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JeffinNZ posted this 27 January 2017

I'm not sure Scearcy that I understand the obsession with short barrels but from a CB point of view they might be good as a shorter, skinny should have less 'whip' I would think. 

Cheers from New Zealand

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 27 January 2017

Jim & Jeff,

The inundation of short barrelled ARs comes from the fact most (not all certainly) first time AR buyers are those who like to play weekend Rambo, are buying them as home defensive weapons or because they look like the ones they see on TV. Most have the appearance of a M4 or some variation of it. Every maker has his own take on that rifle and with all the variations in parts it gives all the different, but similar rifles. Although there is a big push for ARs suited to hunting, those barrels in the 20-24” range are far less available. Maybe I should rephrase that, they are just more expensive. Most ARs will shoot sub MOA groups at 100 yards with JBs, regardless of barrel length, 16” & ip. It is my opinion that they have the potential for good accuracy with cast bullets, but I am only starting my experimentation. Since Ars are so simple to build, I think the accuracy potential is there for the average shooter without spending a lot of money. We all know what has been done in competition with them already.

I will add from experience shooting, but not owning any of the AR pistols, I just don't get it. They may be fun to shoot, but once is enough for me and certainly not fun enough or practical to buy one. 

 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys & Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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John Alexander posted this 09 February 2017

Ken sez: “my dog says to limit  the range of AR classes at first mainly because most established postals draw only 4 or 8 shooters ... need to keep the numbers up ..... and hope that the match draws so many shooters it will require subdivisions later .

I think Ken's dog speaks the truth. One class at first. We have no caliber restrictions in any of the other CBA classes why should ARs be different.  As Ken points out we don't exactly have a flood of entries in the other postal matches.  Let's hope we will in this one and then we can worry about more classes.

John

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SierraHunter posted this 09 February 2017

I can agree with one class to start out with. But if it gets a lot of involvement, I think more would be a good idea.

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John Alexander posted this 10 February 2017

In an email exchange with Tom Acheson and Jim Scearcy about this topic, Tom proposed the following to get things rolling.

"The Postal program. Any centerfire chambering, any scope, any barrel length. 100-yards, 3 matches to choose from, (4) 5-round groups, 10-round score and offhand.

Get Mike Kastning's views and if OK then announce it on the Forum but avoid calling it a Military event, at least for now."

 

The three of us later thought the offhand would be the least popular and could be left off at first -- opinions?

 

When David started this thread he said that he would be willing to HELP manage the postal match. However, since  then he has become Co-Webmaster along with his demanding job as membership director and that offer may not still be open.  Do we have someone willing to receive and score targets and send the results to Mike Kastning IF he agrees to support this addition to his postal match program?

 

If there is a yes to that question, why don't we see if we can't move this idea from the talking stage, where it has been long enough, and move it to the doing stage. Let's give it a try.

 

John

 

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SierraHunter posted this 10 February 2017

I'm willing to receive and score targets.

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Scearcy posted this 10 February 2017

It would also be very helpful if members who have experience with an AR and cast bullets would share what they have learned. The other dreaded cast bullet site has lots of info but it is mostly directed at CB loads  that will function rather than what is most accurate. An chance of getting a couple of articles for TFS or even a thread here with data, targets, etc.? 

I don't own an AR yet so I am afraid I can only offer encouragement.

Jim

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SierraHunter posted this 10 February 2017

I honestly haven't owned one either. It is on my list of things to get though.

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JeffinNZ posted this 10 February 2017

Well I don't have an AR and not about to buy one but I am with you in spirit.  I'm just not sure that 99% of people who buy AR's and such are interesting in handloading let alone cast bullets.  The time they have finished fitting 20 tacticool accessories to their rifle...................

Cheers from New Zealand

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John Alexander posted this 12 February 2017

I have written Mike Kastning, our postal match director, to see if he was willing to try this, No answer yet.

This is turning out to be such a hot topic that it is in danger of falling off the bottom of the “Latest Discussions” page.

I just checked out the replies to the poll that David started when he started this thread (in General Poll category) and a grand total of eight members said they “were interested” (not promising to enter but interested). Not encouraging.

If Mike is willing, I still think we should give it a try and make sure the folks on Booolets and other forums know about it.  If it fails to attract entries we can stop wasting our time on it.

Is anybody else still interested in this effort?

John

 

 

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Scearcy posted this 12 February 2017

John

I am not much of a postal match guy. However as you and I briefly discussed IF and that is a big IF I trade for one this spring, I will definitely put something together for this forum or for TFS. The Boolits guys have their guns functioning fine but I haven't seen any solid claims of less than 2 MOA. We might well be able to improve on the accuracy w/o worrying about the need to have the AR cycle.

Jim

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Toot-Sweet posted this 27 February 2017

Some of us have been experimenting with cast in the AR platform, with PC coatings, to prevent the gas system becoming fouled, for some time now. I shot a 357 Mag and Super in competition for years so thought it might be interesting to see what you can get out of a 358 hard cast (Carlton Shy Formula 70% WW, 20% Lino, 10% Chilled shot cold water dropped) with a Powder Coated 200gr RCBS plain base bullets at 100 yards. RCBS stopped making the mould but NOE makes the mould now. The gun I built for this has a McGowen 16 inch, 358 barrel, 1-20 twist, with a .350 land diameter, with a Rock River upper and lower, plus an adjustable gas block to slow down the bolt opening. The 34 gr of 1680 drives the 200 to right at 2,400 fps in Federal 6.8 SPC brass, making the recoil pad on the little carbine a good idea if you go out to fireform 50 rounds of brass with the 34gr load. It takes a stout load to fireform the brass properly.

I have since built a sub sonic, piggy planter, 1-12 twist version for 250gr bullets and with a Photon IR night sight plus an IR illuminator. By the way, if you have a sub sonic category, should it be shot with the can? Plus most sub guns are shot at 50 rather than 100 if intended for night hunting.

 

Below is the 200gr I use in the 358, a group shot while fire forming brass and the little 358 carbine in 16 inches.

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John Alexander posted this 06 March 2017

We have had only a few express an interest in a AR postal match.  There is a lot of talk about the CBA missing out because we don't have a place for the ARs.  But talk of making an AR class doesn't make much sense if we can't even get interest in a postal match. Half the rifles I see when I go to the range are ARs but maybe those interested in ARs are just not interested in CBs much less competition with CBs

Last call.  Who would shoot an AR with cast bullets if we offer a postal class?

John

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Old Coot posted this 07 March 2017

John

I think that most AR shooters are only interested in cheap ammo.

B.E.Brickey

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Millelacs posted this 07 March 2017

I wonder how many cast bullet shooters started out casting because they were interested in shooting cheap ammo?

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 07 March 2017

I had been casting for almost 33 years before I built my first AR. Shooting cast bullets in them was a natural progression. Cheap ammo was never an incentive to own one though. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys & Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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John Alexander posted this 15 March 2017

OK a CBA postal match for ARs is going to happen one way or another.  The CBA board is discussing the rules for the first match or matches to find out how much interest for this.  If you want to get your two cents worth in now is the time.

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 March 2017

if you are thinking you might need an ar-15 .... i see that ruger 556 are available for under $500 if you look around .  .... 

ken

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Scearcy posted this 16 March 2017

DPMS Oracle for under $500

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MKastning posted this 17 March 2017

Hi everyone.  I am so sorry I don't get on here as often as I should.  Its been crazy in other sections of my CBA life, largely sending out postal targets for the upcoming season.  Keep the orders coming in!  I thought I should jump on and follow up that there is a discussion going on at the board level for ideas on how to put together something AR specific.    I am confident that there are ways to do just about anything, but it all hinges on participation from people actually willing to shoot.

A VERY good way to get the attention of everyone and to show a demand for AR platform specific categories is to jump into the existing match in the postals that is currently shot by very few people, AR's are already allowed.  The Pump, Lever, Auto, Break Action match #16.  It is shot at 100 yards, Four 5 Shot Groups, or one 10 shot score target.  Iron sighted guns are separate from the scoped with targets appropriate for each.

I would welcome any and all (even non CBA members they shoot for a buck more per match) to give it a try. 

A couple things that may be in the postal rules as written that may be stopping people from entry we can deal with easily here.

6x scope is the limit for the traditional scoped match.  It is written for basically hunting rifles.  If you shoot a higher powered scope, just let me know.  We can put it in an Experimental Scoped Class.  You will compete against anyone that enters with a 6.5x or higher scope.  The winner of each class will be eligible for awards and certificates.  Winning CBA members will have their technical data posted in the Fouling Shot as normal.

   The postal rules also state the term factory produced rifle.  One thing about the AR's is the modularity and are built to be customized.  My unofficial stance on this, and frankly the as guy that has to deal with a bunch of variations anyway and sort out the match report, is SHOOT THE MATCH and let me sort out the particulars of reporting.  Look at is as a way to Vote with your triggers to get the AR's involved.

Let me know by either PM here, or email mrkastning@gmail.com or mkastning@thermobond.com how I can help get a massive amount of black rifles shooting in Match #16.  Get your orders in to me through the regular mail method, or email me with the scoped or iron class target requests, group and or score, and mail me your check.  We will get it going. 

Thanks,

Michael Kastning *Postal Director side*

PS:  Mentioning the above to keep it out of the military classes for CBA.  Thanks for the separation!  I certainly don't want to deal with that can of worms.  That is from Michael the Military director side of my keyboard. 

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Pepe Ray posted this 08 April 2017

Late to the party, as usual. Interested? You betcha!!  Got a Windham Weaponry on the way, as I peck. Have been a CB shooter since the -60's. Had NO interest in ANY semi-auto until others showed me there potential. At my age/health status it may never get done but we're gonna try. Carry ON !!

Pepe Ray

Only in His name.

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Larry Gibson posted this 08 April 2017

I think the whole idea is great.

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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RicinYakima posted this 09 April 2017

Mike, The military side is not an issue! Not very many guys own issue M-16's or M-16-1A's. Since we don't allow clone M-1's or M'14's in military, it is not a problem. I think the AR platform matches are a great idea!!! I have this 300 Blackout that....... Ric

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Tom Acheson posted this 09 April 2017

Like some other responders here, I too don't own an AR. There are two gun projects underway right now. But following those, I'm going to hunt down an AR chambered in 7.62x39. They were made for a while but interest waned and they were mostly discontinued. If that happens I'll for sure give the Postal a try.

Someday......

Tom

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 09 April 2017

Like some other responders here, I too don't own an AR. There are two gun projects underway right now. But following those, I'm going to hunt down an AR chambered in 7.62x39. They were made for a while but interest waned and they were mostly discontinued. If that happens I'll for sure give the Postal a try.

Someday......

Tom


Tom,

There are many ARs still being made in .762X39mm, along with numerous uppers which of course you know are 2 minute swap-outs. They do still sell for more than .223s, but I am already seeing the prices coming down, no doubt due to the inventory levels and current demands, with the current threat of a ban lessened with Trump in office & a republican congress. When the manufactures see less demand from the “slam & bang” crowd & hoarders, they will put more effort in making other calibers in greater quantities. Just my 2 cents.


 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys & Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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