M1 Carbine

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Ed Harris posted this 31 May 2017

I picked up an Inland M1 Carbine to test alongside the Ruger Blackhawk.  This one has no import marks and came out the estate of a WW2 vet who got it from the DCM in the 1960s.  Stock is a bit beat up, but serviceable,  original finish, has not been sanded, steamed or refinished.

Bore has some wear, but is good.  Crown is good, fit-up of action in stock is correct.  Overall an honest representation of what one should be.  Now to see if it shoots as accurately as the Ruger Blackhawk and if I can get a plainbased cast bullet to function well and be reasonably accurate.

If any of you guys load cast in the M1 carbine, what do you shoot in yours?

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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GP Idaho posted this 31 May 2017

I have one of the Universal M-1s built down in south Florida some years back. My best load so far has been the Lee C309-120-R.  Powder coated and sized .309 This over 10.2gr. of VV N-110 and a C.O.L. of 1.620. I've also had good luck with H-110 in the 13gr. range and IMR 4227 has worked well for me also. Gp

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Larry Gibson posted this 31 May 2017

Ed

 

Shot my 1st M1 Carbine back in the early '60s when my uncle got one from DCM.  A few years later I used an M2 carbine for a while in the SE Asian war games.  Never used it on rock 'in role seriously though.  I did use it on semi though and it worked just fine as I'm here to discuss it.......

 

I've had my own personal M1 Carbines since '67 and have been shooting cast in them since '68.  I've shot literally thousands of cast rounds through my own and the 20 M2s we had in our SF arms vault.  I worked with the 311410, the 311227 and the 311008 every which way from Sunday and never could gest them to shoot any better than ball ammo.....then only if the velocity was kept under 1500 - 1600 fps. My 311410 mould gave the bullets a slight BB.  I got the best PB'd accuracy out of the true flat based 311008 bullet.  Had to polish the feed ramp and tweak the mag to get reliable feeding with it though.

 

I then found the GC'd 311359 and 311316 were superbly accurate at 1850 - 1900 fps when loaded over H110.  Was a time I could put 15 shots (mag full) into 2 - 3" at 100 yards with the issue sights out of my shooter M1 Carbine.  I can still do that but it has a scout scope on it now.........photo shows a red dot sight but I've switched it out to a Burris scope with duplex reticle.

 

LMG

 

 

All full power 30 Carbine loads are ear splitters in the Ruger........ 

Concealment is not cover.........

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45 2.1 posted this 31 May 2017

Same era rifle for me in several GI makers over the years. I found the Lyman 311257 "ring stop" bullet and the RCBS 30 cal ~115 gr. RNGC shot the best at 0.311" with an old manual load of WW296.... now showing as a slight overload in new manuals. Every once in a while you would get an 1.5" 100 yard group, but most hovered about 2" +/- in all the rifles.

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Ed Harris posted this 01 June 2017

All helpful stuff guys, keep it coming.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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frnkeore posted this 01 June 2017

I had a Inland Carbine, back in the 90's. This data is from 9/90.

I used a SAECO 130 gr GC bullet. In my chronograph book, I have the accuracy stated as "good". Probably 2 - 2.5".

14. 0 gr 296, 1800 fps, 1.70 COAL, SD 5, ES 11, BW/Lith lube

Frank

 

 

 

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BigMan54 posted this 01 June 2017

I got my hands on a folding stock M-2 back in the day. B***h almost got me ended.

HATED THEM EVER SINCE. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun.

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daboone posted this 01 June 2017

I just ordered the NOE 311-115-RN 4 cavity 2GC 2PB because a friend gave me 100 he had cast with WW. I have an Inland and Rockola. These NOE bullets fed and cycled very well using 2400 , Freechex III GC and Carnuba Red. No sizing was required.

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Goatwhiskers posted this 01 June 2017

I really miss mine, bought in the mid 60's at some department store in Houston---remember those days?  All I recall is that it had a Rock-Ola barrel and would shoot 1" groups at 100 from the bench. Gave $55 for it.  Went back to college, needed funds, sold it for $75 with a Lyman 310 tool.  Ah, the good old days.  GW

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 June 2017

dang ya got me excited, so we ran out and my wife ventilated a cardboard box at 30 yards ... offhand, of course ... like a real man ... ooops ...

anyway, here is a pic of my inland with weaver 1.5 scope in a side mount ... yep, paid $22 back in 1963  ... mostly different bullets with 12-15 gr 4227 for action working loads ... 3118, 419 .... and mj softpoints ... what a sinful delight ...    ....  i never tried tuning for accuracy ... mine gets about 3 inches at 50 yards .

maybe we need a bunny shoot just for these ?  i would need a jack rabbit ...

 

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 04 June 2017

Here is GC version which Tom at Accurate is cutting for my M1 carbine and Ruger revolver:

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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John F. posted this 04 June 2017

Back in the mid-'80's, I put several thousand cast GC'ed bullets through a nice DCM Quality Hardware with a Rockola barrel.  I used the RCBS 115 gr. M1 Carbine bullet, gas-checked, with green RCBS rifle lube.  A variety of powders, all in 1943-1945 LC brass.  Rifle shot better with my cast (WW, no HT or quench) bullets sized 0.309" than with USGI ball ammo out to 200  yards.  After the first 2000 rounds, I decided to check my gas piston to see if the dreaded "leading in the gas port" was happening.  Nope, gas piston, etc.. was clean as a whistle.  The farthest distance our range had at that time was 265 yards, and there was a large steel disc set up at that distance.  Keeping a 15-rd magazine of cast bullets well-centered on the gong from sitting, no sling, was a breeze, and surprised many of those who'd always heard how "inaccurate" they were.   My cast bullets at 200 also very handily outshot a Stainless Ruger Mini-14 using 55 gr. M193...  but that Ruger was pretty hideous, so that wasn't much of a challenge.  I found the Speer 110 gr. Varmint/HP *extremely* effective on a feral dog... it wouldn't do to stand in front of one of those.

I'll look back in my old records and see if I have any data that may be of  use.  I also tried some of the various cast, plain-based commercial bullets but accuracy was uniformly terrible with these -- never achieved any success with them.

Hope this helps,

John

 

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Ed Harris posted this 11 June 2017

Range report on the WW2-era Inland M1 carbine. Ball ammo shows VERY typical performance for late a WW2-era Saginaw rework of an Inland to Type III configuration. While muzzle is not worn and crown is good, the bore is NOT perfect, having light frosting, "salt & pepper" throughout. 


After thorough cleaning with Sweets 7.62 to remove accumulated copper deposits, followed by an aggressive cleaning with Brobst JB paste and Kroil the cleaned bore now appears shiny to casual visual inspection. Upon close examination with a magnifying glass and good light, obvious galvanic corrosion (frosty pitting) is apparent in the areas where heavy copper fouling was removed. There is also some frosting in the grooves at the corners of the rifling lands where impacted fouling had built up and lain for many years. This is not at all unusual for a rifle which probably saw WW2 and possibly also Korean or Vietnam service, and while given ordinary field care, it suffered from exposure and neglect. But because it was not heavily worn, so that the barrel was not considered "unserviceable" it was obviously rebuilt and put into storage without being rebarrelled. Save the taxpayers money!

This was a DCM sale from the early 1960s, which came from the estate of a WW2 vet and NRA member. 

It shows has no importer markings, so is a righteous real USGI carbine, completely "unBubba'ed." Just what I wanted.

The ten-shot group shown above was fired at 100 yards with Yugoslav PPU FMJ. It measures 5.8" extreme spread. The rifle shot to point of aim with its rear sight mechanically centered and the elevation slider notch placed at the "100" notch setting. The SR1 target scores a 90-0X which is about what I would expect with Ball ammo from an unaltered GI M1 carbine of this condition.

My cast bullet handloads shown below did MUCH better. The 5-shot cast bullet group was shot at 50 yards using the same 100-yard sight setting. Bullets were cast of 50-50 wheelweights and linotype and are of a plainbased, hollowpoint design from Accurate Molds actually intended for the .32-20 Winchester, as-cast diameter being .313 and bullets were sized to .311"

The powder charge I used is exactly the same as we use in a neighbor's original pre-1900, 1873 Winchester .32-20 family heirloom rifle which has a very similarly frosted bore with "strong" rifling. This particular '73 for which the mold was cut saw a great deal of black powder use in its day and fed the family which has passed it down through four generations during the Great Depression. It is still used as a family "deer rifle," the .32-20 being legal for such use here in West Virginia.

I've always figured that the .30 M1 carbine was best thought of as a semi-auto .32-20 and should be loaded to the same power level. The charge of 14 grains of IMR4198 I used is compressed about 1/8" by the seated bullet. This provides base support to the bullet to prevent telescoping into the powder space when the nose strikes the feed ramp. This is exactly the same method recommended for assembling safe smokeless hunting loads in the old weak lever-action rifles. A caseful of 4198 or RL7 in the .32-20, .38-40, .44-40 assembled with a standard weight bullet for the caliber duplicates the velocity of the traditional blackpowder load, about 1400 fps, at safe pressures below 14,000 psi, is clean burning and doesn't lead the barrel. 



Applied to the .30 M1 carbine this makes a PERFECT small game, wild turkey, varmint, coyote, "kitchen door garden deer" and home defense load, which cycles reliably!. Cheap to shoot, no gas-checks needed. Any old soft scrap lead that will cast. 500 rounds to a pound of powder! Doesn't get any better than that...

Hillbilly heaven achieved!

 



73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 21 June 2017

 

I bit the bullet and bought a Ultimak M6 rail mount for M1 carbine so that I can use a scope or optical sight also.  

This clamps around the barrel forward of the gas block and requires no permanent modification to the rifle, so the military issue wooden handguard can be replaced and the rifle restored to original condition.  

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Scearcy posted this 22 June 2017

The 30 carbine never interested me much but this is  very cool!

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 June 2017

After several scope mounts I found the Ultimak mount is the only way to go.  Also there is a lot of vibration and forward recoil when shooting the M1 carbine.  They are hell on inexpensive scopes and red dot sights.....they'll rattle apart in no time. It's kind of like how scopes rattle apart on springer air rifles unless made solidly which many of the cheaper scopes aren't.  I've found Leupold and Burrise scout and handgun scopes to be solid on the M1 Carbine.  A Burris 2X handgun scope is on my "shooter".....

 

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Ed Harris posted this 22 June 2017

Larry,

Thanks for the validation.  Gurus at Peacemaker National Training Center here offered the exact same advice.  

I already had the Trijicon for hunting use on my Marlin lever-actions on the XS Lever-Scout rail.  

Feedback from WVARNG who have used the RX09 on their M4s on multiple deployments suggest it is the best bang for the back.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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John F. posted this 24 June 2017

Very interesting!

Please let us know if you find significant accuracy improvement at 100 yards or more, using optics!

Thanks for sharing!

John

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Westhoff posted this 25 June 2017

I, too find this very interesting.  My one and only experience with the M1 was just a few weeks after VJ day. I was Radio Officer aboard a Liberty ship.  We were loaded with crated B29 engines, headed for Manila in preparation for the big push into Japan, and after some confusion we were re-routed to Okinawa and then back to the States.  On the way, we encountered a floating mine (probably torn loose from its mooring by one of the many typhoons that hit that area that year).  

After we watched the d--n thing bounce off the hull from bow to stern, our Navy gun crew decided to try to detonate it when we got far enough away from it.  Since one of the other Radio Officers was on watch at that time, I had wandered back to the fantail to watch the fun.  When I got there, somebody had an M1 (souvenir) and gave me a chance to shoot it.  The Navy gun crew with one of the 20mm Oerlicons (sp?) in a gun tub on the flying bridge were the official "mine killers",but it seemed that 20mm wasn't much more accurate than I was.  At 18 years  old I was pretty dang good offhand, but I certainly was NOT shooting anything that even pretended to be accurate.  That M1's performance made me very glad I had not been a GI down there in the jungle trying to fight the Japanese with one  of those things.

The 20mm finally made a couple of hits and the mine did not detonate; not unusual after they had torn loose and been floating for a while, and I came away with a very jaundiced view of the M1's usefulness.

Wes

 

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SierraHunter posted this 25 June 2017

It's a shame to mount a scope on a rifle like that.

 

Nice find. I've always wanted a M1 carbine, but have never even shot one for what ever reason. I think it would be fun to shoot a 3 gun match with one just for the heck of it. I got quite a few raised eyebrows shooting with a mini 14, so I can imagine the looks if  showed up with a M1 carbine.

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Larry Gibson posted this 25 June 2017

Yes it's a shame......but when your eyes go south as you get older it's the only way I can still enjoy shooting my M1 Carbine and other short barreled rifles.

If your eyes are still good and you can focus on the front sight then by all means enjoy shooting them as issued. Unfortunately those days for me are gone.......

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Ed Harris posted this 2 weeks ago

I fooled for a while with the Ultimak mount on my Inland with the Trijicon reflex, and despite several iterations snugging the clamp screws, making sure the mount wasn't contacting the barrel band or receiver, I wasn't able to maintain a zero or shoot consistent groups with the Trijicon. So, I took the Ultimak rail off, put the issue handguards back on, and rezeroed with the military iron sights.

Cast loads are shooting better than LC44 and WCC44 ball ammo, or PPU softpoint, about 4" for ten-shot groups at 100 yards with iron sights.  About the same as I get from my .30 carbine Ruger Blackhawk...

Accurate 31-114D cast from wheelweights, sized .311", Lee Liquid Alox, compressed nominal case full, 14 grs. IMR4198 at 50 and 100 yds. iron sights. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 2 weeks ago

Some interesting chronograph data comparing the .30 carbine in the Ruger revolver and the M1 carbine:

JACKETED FACTORY .30 Caliber Carbine Ammunition In Revolver and Rifle

Ammunition__________Ruger 7-1/2”______________US M1 Carbine 18”

LC44 Ball M1__________1586 fps , 20 Sd, 46 ES______1981 fps, 20 Sd, 56 ES

WCC44 Ball M1________1527, 21, 58_______________1960, 23, 89

PPU 110-gr.SP__________1321, 30, 84______________1903, 25, 84

Norma 110-gr. SP_______1490, 35, 96______________1960, 18, 59

W-W 110-gr. HSP_______1300, 29, 79______________1894, 18, 63

Federal 110-gr. SP______1414, 22, 54______________1959, 16, 56

Column Means________1439 fps Avg. REVOLVER_____1943 fps Avg. CARBINE

                                     Velocity increase of carbine over revolver = +504 fps     

Table 2 – Cast Bullet Loads in Ruger Blackhawk Revolver and US .30 Caliber M1 Carbine

Ammunition__________Ruger 7-1/2”______________US M1 Carbine 18”

Accurate 31-087B

7.8 grs. AutoComp_____1502 fps, 19 Sd, 52 ES_______1759 fps, 5 Sd, 23 ES

10.8 grs. Alliant#2400__1458, 31, 84________________1705, 46, 145

15 grs. IMR4198______1176, 38, 99________________ 1543, 32, 136

Accurate 31-100T

7.8 grs. AutoComp_____1527, 11, 29_______________1692, 16, 54 Most accurate load

14.0 grs. IMR4227_____1524, 12, 35_______________1858, 13, 33

14 grs. IMR4198_______1178, 52, 125_____________1538, 22, 50 

Accurate 31-114D

14 grs. IMR4198__nose too fat to fit revolver cyl._____1515, 26, 91

Accurate 31-120TG

10 grs. #2400_________1310, 36, 77______________1590, 22, 68

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JeffinNZ posted this 2 weeks ago

ED:  Are those 31-114 holes a little oval?

Cheers from New Zealand

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Ed Harris posted this 2 weeks ago

Yes!  They are...  But lots more accurate than Ball M1 so no complaints here.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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