I am going to branch out to casting and loading for a 7mm with a relatively short cartridge 1.7” OAL. My question is will a Lyman “M” die work for that length cartridge? They are listed on the Lyman site as working for 7x57, 7 Mag which are considerably longer. I have been a RCBS expander user till now but the dealer that I buy all my reloading/ casting stuff from is out of the RCBS 7mm expander and I thought this might be a good opportunity to try the “M” die.
Longone
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My approach is similar to HS40. Bullets are in the case just so the gas check is out of sight. And the necks are sized only about 1/2 way down using a bushing style die. It took a summer (2005) of poor match results until I finally got the right combination of neck ID and OAL to get me to have a really good match season in 2006. And....this is with an after marker barrel, custom chamber and a bump die that is “married” to the taper of the bullet produced by the bump die.
Tom
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Modifying a collet die to fit a shorter case would be quite a job. Lee will make you a custom collet die set if you send them some number of fired cases and the bullet you intend to shoot. When I last checked it ran about 60.00
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If I purchase a collet die will it work on the shorter case that I'm using (1.700") or will it need to be modified?
Longone
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R. Dupraz, I appreciate you being a “questioner". We need more of them everywhere but especially in cast bullet shooting. In my opinion too many just take what they have been told instead of questioning and testing to see if some piece of cast bullet dogma is true or not. Sorry that my post seemed defensive to you. I worry that that I will offend and irritate because of my non conventional opinions -- just as it seemed that I stirred up some people with my statement that I though there were better ways to get the proper ID neck size than the M die. I have similar reactions from some people about my contentions that sorting bullets by weight, weighing powder, rejecting wrinkled bullets, and worrying about small base imperfections usually do not improve accuracy. I am usually the one challenging convention cast bullet wisdom and intend to keep on but I don't want to do it in a way that irritates and makes others defensive instead of encouraging them to consider the results of new ideas backed up with testing with an open mind. As far as who has deposited more lead in backstops I am sure you and your 45x2.4 are tons ahead of me since ninety percent of my shooting is with the 22. And a merry Christmas and happy new year to you and all. John
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John:
I sense a little defensiveness in your latest reply. I hope I'm wrong but, I do. My questions were not intended to be interpreted that way at all. Without a doubt, you have fired a lot more lead into the backstop than I. So how else can this affliction advance unless it is to question and compare techniques and results? Personally, I don't understand why some feel threatened by this. I certainly am not. And when that happens, there is no point in continuing.
Only after you revealed your seating method toward the end. could I see why you are not that concerned with concentricity. Because during my years with a 45X2.4 Shiloh Sharps, the best groups by far were with PP bore size bullets loaded as shallow in the case as I could get by with. But only through TESTING was this revealed. Basically, of course, in an attempt to get as close to breach seating as possible with a fixed round. This was with real BP and a 550 grn. soft lead bullet and on paper at 185 yds, on out to 900 on steel. I have targets yet with groups that would rival any modern smokeless sporter using 1870's technology.
So, anyway,
A Merry Christmas to you and yours
I remain
R.Dupraz
"The questioner"
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I also believe this to be true. My most accurate cast bullet load has little more than the gascheck seated into the case neck. It would be very hard to maintain concentricity this way. But if you have the body of the bullet sized to be a snug fit in the chamber throat and a properly fitted bore rider nose, then the bullet will align itself true to the centerline of the bore when you chamber the round. I also only size half the case neck which should help some in helping the case center up in the chamber. I'm not saying this is the only answer to cast bullet accuracy.........but it works very well for me.
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<url=http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=82><b>R. Dupraz</b></url><b> wrote:</b>
“John: Do you or have you checked neck concentricity after sizing? And then that of the bullet after loading? I am interested in the runout that you are getting. RD ”====== RD, I did check concentricity when I first started using the collet die and whatever I found apparently satisfied me. I just made quick search for my Sinclair jig for testing concentricity. I found the box but I have apparently put the jig someplace else. I will look for it this pm, measure some necks and loaded rounds and try to answer your question. However, I don't really care too much how concentric the round is if it shoots well and they seem to without concentric testing. I apparently have a bit different approach to trying to find accuracy than most. As you probably know from my articles in the Fouling Shot. For match ammunition I don't sort my bullets by weight, precisely weigh my powder charges if they will measure fairly well, clean my primer pockets, and do some other things often done. Since I don't know where my jig for testing it is, obviously testing cases and loaded rounds for concentricity is one of those other things. I sense that admitting to doubting the virtue of the procedures listed above offends those who do them. I don't mean to to be obnoxious by being a doubting Thomas and I know that all these procedures seem logical, but only being logical isn't good enough and I have satisfied myself BY TESTING that none of these time consuming chores improve the accuracy of my loads so I have stopped doing them. I have no quarrel with those who find them useful. I have read that concentricity of cases and rounds is related to accuracy for jacketed bullets. However, I follow the practice of the late John Ardito and seat very little more than the gas check the case neck. With such a round the alignment is dependent on the bullet aligning itself in the throat and bore and concentricity of the round before chambering doesn't seem to have much effect. John
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I read someplace maybe in the Fouling Shot that the Collet die relies on the flash hole being centered and true to get concentric neck sizing.
I have been using the collet die for 22 Hornet for the past 20 some years, haven't lost a case yet.
In the Fouling Shot NO.179 page 3, Robert N. Sears has a neat modification to the Collet die.
---J
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John:
Do you or have you checked neck concentricity after sizing? And then that of the bullet after loading?
I am interested in the runout that you are getting.
RD
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I agree with Gary that the instructions for the collet dies are inadequate.
The instructions that came with my oldest dies said very little. By the time they changed to going on about pushing with 25 pounds of pressure (force really) and worrying about presses that toggle over center, I had figured out a simple way to get good results and have ignored the instructions since.
I may be too simple minded but I simply start at the one turn past contact as Lee suggests and adjust the die up and down a 20th of a turn at a time trying and measuring necks until I get the OD I want. I do this while pressing the press handle to a solid stop each time, no worrying about inconsistent force on handle, the ram stops at the same position each time. That's the end of story. This may sound too simple but that's because it is simple.
I usually use a Forester Co-ax press or a Lee Classic turret both have about the same mechanical advantage just before the “stop.” I estimate the force on the handle is between 3 and 6 pounds at the solid stop. I have polished the angled contact surfaces that press the collet leaves inward and that may have lowered the force needed.
For serious reloads I usually do rotate the case a quarter to half turn and give it a second size like a true fussy cast bullet shooter should but I don't really know if this does any good. (I will test for that. Maybe I can quit doing it.)
I have a batch of brass that I have turned the necks to .012” (it works just as well with unturned Lapua brass) and usually size to an OD of between .242 and .246 for a 22 bullet depending on the sized diameter of the bullet. When loading serious ammo I often stop and measure the OD of ten cases with a good quality micrometer. I seldom find a neck that varies more then .0005” from the average.
I have quit worrying about neck tension since Jerry Bottiger reported in the July/August Fouling Shot on his excellent research which showed that it much less important than most of us had assumed. But it is nice to know that IDs are uniform anyway.
I have polished the mandrels in some of my collet dies down .001” or so when I wanted an especially tight neck for some reason, but have forgotten which ones.
Because collet dies have always worked so well for me with the simple procedure described above I like them. They will produce the same inside diameter that an M die will and do it just as uniformly. In addition you can easily vary that diameter for different bullets, sizes, etc. Something you can't do with an M die unless you have a set of them for each caliber.
Like for some other cats, Gary has apparently found another way skin this one. And folks using the M die have found yet another.
John
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John:
"Where to start? I think by apologizing"
Apologize? For what?
It's just that when I see someone make general statements about things that are contrary to what my experience has shown, I feel the need to speak up. And then expect to see some supporting evidence. Not because of a belief that my way is the only way but because I may learn one more little thing that will ultimately improve that group down there. And for all the new shooters that happen along looking for information. No criticism intended what so ever.
After all, I believe this whole game, after the basics is really just a long struggle of searching out all the small details that will improve what we do. And they deffinaterly get smaller as we go along.
And after nearly 30 yrs. in LE I'm pretty much “unoffendable".
RD:D:
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Out of both dies mentioned in this post, The Lee collet is the one that can be installed on your press and ruined the first time you operate your press lever. If you don't know why, you shouldn't have put the die on your press because you don't understand it.
Gary
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I have both dies mentioned above a d have found uses for both in different guns and applications. One thing I will mention I have found with the M die. Some how some way the expander plugs can come loose over time. Rather than lock tight I use clear nail polish on the threads. Not hard to break loose if need be and no more problems. Jeff
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I first started using the Lee Collet Dies immediately when they hit the market. I made 3 calls to Lee Tech Department regarding the instructions before I began to get these dies setup and working correctly. It is evident that many believe these are easy or difficult dies to setup. Subsequently, I have made 2 calls to Lee complaining that the instructions for the Lee collet dies are inadequate for very specific reasons:
1)The instructions give no clear indication of the function of the parts. 2)The instructions give no clear indication of what following the instructions will do. 3) the instructions give no indication to avoid different setups or what will happen with different setups. 4) There are no instructions to dissemble and clean the die.
Lee has done nothing to rectify these complaints even after my offering to re-write the instructions for Lee when I figured these collet dies out with the help of their Technical Dept.. I am a retired Technical Writer by trade.
I really like the collet dies now but can certainly understand people that throw them at their walls. You might have guessed that I am a hard nosed, fact throwing big mouth when I am on the phone with a Technical Dept. representative and I am relentless until I completely get good answers that I understand.
I get the Lee Collet Dies to do everything their Patent claims they will do and have never even come close to returning one.
It has been mentioned on this and other forums about disembly and polishing of the parts of the Lee Collet Dies for one or another reason . That is a product of creative imagination that will seriously effect the result of Lee Collet Dies. There are critical measurement areas of the die parts that are easily and permanently damaged by “tampering". I'll add that if you really understood how the critical part surfaces of these dies interact, you would know better than to tamper with them.
Gary
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Where to start? I think by apologizing. My flip remarks weren't meant to claim that the M die didn't do exactly what is is designed to do, just that in my reloading I had found something that did the same thing a lot easier and quicker for me. I will try to watch my wiseass remarks in the future. After all some people are making great photographs with film camera and enjoying their favorite movies on a VHS machine as well.
Tom is exactly right, the differences of opinion and techniques are one of the things that make cast bullet shooting interesting to many of us. What Tom didn't say was that posts about these differences should be made carefully or they can be misunderstood as criticism. We not only have to respect one another but be sure our posts make that clear.
Clearly the Lee Collet did has caused a lot of hair tearing. I don't have a magic solution but I will describe how I use them in a future post and it isn't complicated but it is different from Gary's approach.
RD said: ” I only accept things if I can prove to myself that they work for me, irregardless of what many others are doing. ” I couldn't agree more if more CB shooters took this to heart instead of following old rules that have been handed down CB shooting would have advanced faster and further.
When I said that collet dies strain the brass much less than using conventional dies and the M die I didn't mean the M die was the culprit. It obviously isn't since it only expands the neck a few thousandths at most. The conventional dies I have (RCBS, Redding, Lee, Herter, and Hollywood) all squeeze the neck down a lot more than needed for the expander button to do it's work. That's why the button comes out much harder than the M die goes in. Take the expander stem out of your die, size a case and see how grossly it is reduced. Redding S dies avoid this of course.
To try to answer the question about case life -- With conventional dies I start to get neck splits in 15 to 30 reloads if I don't anneal. Sometimes much sooner with some dies. (I would be interested in other's experience.) The 240 Remington cases that I use for matches and practice have all been loaded over thirty times with the collet die without annealing and I haven't had the first neck split. Twenty of the same cases that I did all my practicing and load development with for two or three years to see how long they would last had their first neck split on the 184th reload and the second on the 218th. They were never FL sized or annealed and still fit with a gentle “feel” of the bolt.
I am not trying to get anybody to throw away their M dies but the collet die works well for me. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
John
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John:
No matter what I'm doing now, continually looking for anything that will show improved results I'm all ears. It's never ending.
I bet you probably don't have my current e-mail. It has been changed again sometime back. I'll send you a PM.
Thanks
RD
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Dupraz wrote: John:
So, enlighten us on your magical formula, My July/August issue happens to be missing. RD -====
RD,
Sorry to be late in responding. I wanted to email the article to you. I looked up your email address and then got distracted. I will send in a few minutes. There is nothing magical about it and it works well for me but I see that getting Lee Collet dies to work has caused others problems.
John
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What we are seeing here and in previous but different subjects exchanges....the one thing that makes CB's so darned interesting...all of us arrive arrive at different conclusions for different reasons...there is no “this is only way it works” condition...fascinating!
Tom
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I like the M-dies. I find them very handy for 22 bullets. When I had my progressive press the flare from the m-die acted like a shelf to hold the bullet as it went into the seating die. No pinched fingers for the kid! I can also tell right away when a case is too long. Sometimes a long one slips into the matrix and the bugle flare I get is a dead give away. I counter sunk the top of my collet die until the top of the case pokes through. When it then gets sized I have a built in flare. This coupled with no lube is a real speeder upper. I bought the 30-06 collet die when they first came out and broke the top out of the thing trying to get enough grip to hold full power jacketed bullets. I use all of the methods mentioned here so far in one caliber or another and they all have merit to me.
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Sure!
Gary
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John Carlson
22
linoww
17
Bud Hyett
15
drone
9
MP1886
7
beltfed
6
Lucky1
6
RicinYakima
5
mashburn
4
beemer
4
