Single shot rifles aren't accurate

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  • Last Post 20 December 2007
CB posted this 20 May 2007

Clearly the SS guys are wasting their time, everyone knows that the 2 piece stock on SS rifles makes the guns inaccurate.

And, the most inaccurate ones are those where the butt stock isn't through bolted to the action-Win 85, Rem Hepburn, Stevens 44 1/2-the most accurate have the stock through bolted to the action, Ballard, Borchardt, deHaas-Miller, Martini.

Stop the nonsense and get a Savage bolt gun, get rid of those SSs.

joe brennan

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PETE posted this 20 May 2007

 Joe,

  You're really trying to start an argument..... aren't you? :)

  Ok. I'll bite. You know you're not gonna win this, don't you?

 In my thread on powder charges < .5 ....... just click on the web address and that should convince you that they are accurate. I'm not really all that good a bench shot so if you want to see some in the 1/4"and 3/8” area, maybe I can prevail on one of the members here who can supply me with targets I'll take pictures of and put on my web site to prove the point. How 'bout it Bob?

  Of course we have to know your definition of accurate. For that I'll take some of the targets you've posted on here and elsewhere as a reference for your definition. The targets posted far exceed your standards.

  Now if you want to compare the accuracy some of the CBA match shooters get then I have no doubt that some might be able to shoot better groups on average than those shown.

  But the big premise you're forgetting is that the SS shooters are only trying to shoot SS guns to the best accuracy possible for those guns. That is their hobby so how could they be wasting their time? You might as well say the CBA shooters ought to stop wasting their time and start shooting jacketed bullets.

 If you want more proof that SS's might be competitive to a bolt gun all you have to do is look at the match reports listed in the FS. I make it a point to do the comparisions and it seems like the SS guys win their fair share when shooting their SS PBB's against the bolt gun GC's.

PETE

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CB posted this 21 May 2007

PETE wrote:  Joe,

  You're really trying to start an argument..... aren't you? :)

  Ok. I'll bite. You know you're not gonna win this, don't you?

 In my thread on powder charges < .5 ....... just click on the web address and that should convince you that they are accurate. I'm not really all that good a bench shot so if you want to see some in the 1/4"and 3/8” area, maybe I can prevail on one of the members here who can supply me with targets I'll take pictures of and put on my web site to prove the point. How 'bout it Bob?

  Of course we have to know your definition of accurate. For that I'll take some of the targets you've posted on here and elsewhere as a reference for your definition. The targets posted far exceed your standards.

  Now if you want to compare the accuracy some of the CBA match shooters get then I have no doubt that some might be able to shoot better groups on average than those shown.

  But the big premise you're forgetting is that the SS shooters are only trying to shoot SS guns to the best accuracy possible for those guns. That is their hobby so how could they be wasting their time? You might as well say the CBA shooters ought to stop wasting their time and start shooting jacketed bullets.

 If you want more proof that SS's might be competitive to a bolt gun all you have to do is look at the match reports listed in the FS. I make it a point to do the comparisions and it seems like the SS guys win their fair share when shooting their SS PBB's against the bolt gun GC's.

PETE

How can this be true? I've read about the inferior SS accuracy with 2 piece stocks for years, and so have you.

I've read about inferior buttstock-not-bolted-to-the-frame SS accuracy even recently on the ASSRA forum.

Your and other targets, and the CBA results, data, seem to suggest that this piece of conventional wisdom is wrong. Are you going to let data, evidence, trump conventional wisdom?

Are you suggesting that this might be our first result? Can we write this down? Something like:

"The story that SS rifles aren't accurate because of 2 piece stocks is not true, they are or can be accurate. The buttstock-not-bolted-to-the-frame SS inferior accuracy story is also not true."

Are you? Huh?

A bold step, indeed. Calling 50 years of gun articles and writers wrong.

joe brennan 

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PETE posted this 21 May 2007

 Joe,

  I agree with you that two piece stocks are not the best type to use. The flexing point of a SS gun seems to be right where the the butt stock meets the back of the receiver. Without a stock bolt such as the Ballard has things really depend on how tight that joint is.

  As you are aware most of the old SS's are over a 100 yrs. old and have been thru many season cycles with the attendant expansion and contraction of the wood. So it is really a miracle if any of these guns has a tight joint. It's easy enuf to test for this by just holding the barrel and trying to wiggle the butt stock vertically. There will be some play in most even if it's barely noticeable.

  So I'm not saying what the authors have said over the last 50 yrs. is wrong. It is wrong only in regards to the guns they had to play with.

  I have guns that were originally without a thru bolt and then, due to their looseness, had a thru bolt put on. They do shoot better after this “fix". I also have guns that have been shot as made without a thru bolt, and they shoot just as accurately. A new made SS will shoot very accurately. But you have to compare apples to apples and not throw in are they more/same as a bolt gun of the same caliber. Would be interesting to find that question out tho! :)

 "The story that SS rifles aren't accurate because of 2 piece stocks is not true, they are or can be accurate. The buttstock-not-bolted-to-the-frame SS inferior accuracy story is also not true."

  You could say this but then you'd have to put in a lot of caveats such as I mentioned above. The main caveat would have to be that the guns tested would have to be in the same condition as the day they left the factory.

PETE

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GWarden posted this 21 May 2007

Joe B. Dang, I must have lived in Missouri for to long, because I don't believe what I usually read, but believe what I have seen proved. Please don't tell my CPA rifles that they are supposedly inferior as far as accuracy goes, due to their two piece stock. These are new rifles produced by CPA, shot as is from the factory. I guess I've wasted my time by working up loads and depending on temp. may change powder dropped in my breech seated loads as little as .1gr, and spent time trying different lubes after working up my loads, and did find lube does make a difference. Please don't tell my 32/40 supposedly from what has been written about two piece stocks being not accurate, that in last year,s CBA postal match my inaccurate rifle shot a .438” group. This dang inaccurate rifle this year shot a .397” group for the postals and a score of 99. I guess I'll just continue to shoot this inaccurate rifle. Bob

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CB posted this 22 May 2007

GWarden wrote: Joe B. Dang, I must have lived in Missouri for to long, because I don't believe what I usually read, but believe what I have seen proved. Please don't tell my CPA rifles that they are supposedly inferior as far as accuracy goes, due to their two piece stock. These are new rifles produced by CPA, shot as is from the factory. I guess I've wasted my time by working up loads and depending on temp. may change powder dropped in my breech seated loads as little as .1gr, and spent time trying different lubes after working up my loads, and did find lube does make a difference. Please don't tell my 32/40 supposedly from what has been written about two piece stocks being not accurate, that in last year,s CBA postal match my inaccurate rifle shot a .438” group. This dang inaccurate rifle this year shot a .397” group for the postals and a score of 99. I guess I'll just continue to shoot this inaccurate rifle. Bob

Bob;

There seems to be a lot of data, reliable match results, that demonstrates that SS rifles can be accurate.

There is no data that I can find that shows that varying powder charges .1 or .2 grains makes any accuracy difference, or that lube (over some reasonable range) makes a difference.

How about doing some experimenting to show whether these things matter? Let's get some facts to counter opinions. It ain't hard and it won't take a lot of time.

joe brennan

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 02 December 2007

Reminds me of what President Ronald Reagan said of the democrats. “...it's not that they're liars as much as the fact that they know so many things that just aren't true...".

Rich

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delmarskid1 posted this 03 December 2007

My Browning BPCR 45-70 shoots scrap lead and charcoal as accurately as my national match ar-15 shoots sierra match bullets. Oh hell, they BOTH have two piece stocks don"t they? Maybe I should start using scopes so that I can worry about these things.

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 03 December 2007

Don't have to look any farther than the CBA record book to see how accurate those two-piece stocks are.

Rich

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CB posted this 04 December 2007

Yep just look in the plain base category

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billwnr posted this 04 December 2007

maybe those guys have 1 piece stocks as they've heard about the shortcomings of two piece ones.

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CB posted this 04 December 2007

If it is a Miller or a CPA or Ruger, those are all 2 piece stocks from what I have seen at matches.

Those Millers sure are pretty guns!

I have a buddy that is working on a Ruger #1 that he made the stock for (gorgeous, I might add) in 38-55. It shoots sub 1moa @ 100 yds when the load and operator are functioning correctly.

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 04 December 2007

International Single Shot Association rules specifically prohibit one piece stocks. The wood that attaches to the action on either end may not touch the other end or piece of wood.

billwnr, just check with the Tacoma Club for the date of their next ISSA Regional and go over for a couple hours. You will see many, many ten-shot groups at 200 yards under 1.5". Most boltguns will not shoot with the breech seater single shots.

In 1990 I went up to Seattle to get an Unlimited stock from Manley Oakley. When my wife and I got to his home I asked him if there was anything to do that weekend. He told me that there was a Coors Schuetzenfest Regional at Tacoma R&P's range. I had shot my HBR there a few times. I go, I have been writing for Precision Shooting Magazine for a couple years, and they rope me in to shoot in the Media&Celebrity Match. Ten-shot group at 200 yards, scope sighted benchrest match. A few people knew me from HBR and PS, and the noise there is “...another peanut head gun magazine writer...those guys shoot their best groups at the keyboard...I gotta see this goober tank". I set up on the west end bench with a guy with a HiWall, 32-40. I fire a couple shots to get the scope zeroed for my eyes. I look behind me, and there are three or four people looking at my target with spotting scopes. The 25-ring is 1.5” in diameter. First three shots go in between the 2 and 5 with about a bullet hole and a half of vertical. I get caught in a little switch, and the next shot “leaks out” at 9 o'clock. I hear a sigh and look behind me. There are now about a dozen people with spotting scopes watching my target. The next two shots cut the five, next one is out at 3 o'clock, next one is in, next one is out again at 3 o'clock and the last one is a pinwheel, between the two and five. Two-hundred forty-seven and 7 centers out of a possible 250-10C. I spin around on the stool and look behind me. It seems as if there are 300 people looking thru spotting scopes at my target. Playing the group, I stand up and take a bow...the crowd goes wild! I hear people saying, “...I'll be d----d, there's one of them a------s can actually shoot a little...". God should have taken me home right then and there. We all have a few moments when everything goes perfect, that was one of half a dozen.

I'll tell you the rest of that story one of these days.

Rich

PS: if you get in a sporting mood, shoot against one of the SS guys with your best cast bullet rifle and load, but prepare to be humbled.

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billwnr posted this 04 December 2007

Idaho Sharpshooter wrote: International Single Shot Association rules specifically prohibit one piece stocks. The wood that attaches to the action on either end may not touch the other end or piece of wood.

billwnr, just check with the Tacoma Club for the date of their next ISSA Regional and go over for a couple hours. You will see many, many ten-shot groups at 200 yards under 1.5". Most boltguns will not shoot with the breech seater single shots.

Rich

Rich,  I was trying to play dumb...and I guess it worked

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linoww posted this 04 December 2007

Rich

PS: if you get in a sporting mood, shoot against one of the SS guys with your best cast bullet rifle and load, but prepare to be humbled.

 

I think top competitor to top competitor in the CBA it is pretty even.it would be unfair to take average shooters gun and compare it to a top ASSRA shooter as the comparison. if you look at CBA records most PB records are not the smallest or best as compared to Heavy or UNR.The 200yd score agg is the only one higher than all other classes.We have Bev Pinney and Tommy Mason and they are darn good shooters to represent Breach Seaters in the CBA so if it was that much superior they would have all of the smallest record groups shot or the best scores.I for sure wouldnt bet against beach seaters though!!I was in Springfied Oregon when Tommy Mason shot his record 10 shot .400 group and man was it windy that day,it truely amazed me.

 

George

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 04 December 2007

Most of the SS guys are shooting a rifle stocked for offhand. That's where fame and fortune are won at matches. If you take the shooter who finished 20th at the ISSA Nationals and have him shoot ten-shot groups at 100 yards, I put my money on groups in the .5” to .65” range. I have shot against Tommy before at ISSA matches. I would put money on the top ten at Raton this year against the top ten in Heavy at the Nationals. Schuetzen is the ultimate test of man and machine. At the nats this summer they shot 50 rounds a day for score. Day One, Iron Sights Offhand, Day Two Iron Sight Bench, Day Three Scope Bench, and Day Four, Scope Offhand. Most of the rifles are in the twelve pound range. Tell you what, take your best rifle and load and shoot five, ten-shot targets over two and one-half hours. Use a 1.5” bull, and post those targets here. Nearly all of the top twenty will average under 2” for ten shots at 200 yds. Ten shot groups as opposed to five, give you twice as many opportunities to stroke ONE shot out, and ruin that target.

Rich

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linoww posted this 04 December 2007

"Schuetzen is the ultimate test of man and machine."

Ok 'i'll bite on that bold statement<G>

Here I go---

I am not talking offhand prowess or anything else. I agree the matches are grueling and having only shot High-power CBA BR,  and 4p small-bore, I cant say how much more difficult it is. My point is how come the smallest groups records (and scores) in the CBA are not all held by PB shooters. If it's just the rifle type you say has the advantage rifle how come the Miller chambered in 6PPC doesn't hold all the records in jacketed bullet BR. Bolt guns do because they are inherently more accurate when all else in equal. We cannot breach seat legally in Heavy Class and I doubt it could be very practical in UNR bolt guns. I think the ability to get bullet fit (by breach seating)is the key to the accuracy “advantageâ€? if there is one. I have shot against Tommy, Bev,Chaucy Roe ,Bernie Connan and those guys and I saw no “bigâ€? advantage over bolt guns. Sometimes one individual shot better and that was it .Don't the ASSRA matches allow you toâ€? throw awayâ€? a bad target in the series? I can't remember??

This is all just my opinion, and is not anything more. Take it at that please.

George

 

 

 

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 04 December 2007

Dean Miller would have shot anybody he found out fit a synthetic stock to one of his actions!

If you check jacketed BR records, you will see that the ones shot in the days of wooden stocks are not far off the current PB here.

They never let me “toss” my bad target at a schuetzenfest match. You put all five targets up and have a time frame to shoot ten shots on each one. There would be no way to scratch one and replace it.

I would dearly love to see what scores the top guns in CBA would post with iron sights, or shooting offhand. The PB rifles are generally weight limited to about twelve pounds, since they are shot offhand for half the matches.

I doubt you could find a top CBA shooter willing or able to hold his heavy or UNR offhand long enough to fire ONE ten shot group, or fit it with iron sights...or hit a barn at 200 yards if he could/would. Comparatively speaking, BR scope is the simplest, easiest form of cast bullet competition out there. It requires less skill, and practice.

Just posting what difference there is as someone who has shot both, and enjoys both. Two rotator cuff surgeries later, my OH shooting days are pretty much over.

My opinion, which is just and only that. One other thing, the single shots are much prettier.

Rich

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RicinYakima posted this 04 December 2007

Geo,

What happened to that nice picture with you and the kids?

Ric

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CB posted this 04 December 2007

I tell ya what, it sound like there is a challenge afoot..

I know there will be many at the CBA nationals this year in KC.. Some will shoot in the offhand match.

I dont see much in the rules regarding limitations for the offhand match, so what the heck.. I shoot in production class, my rifle weighs 11 lb 15 1/2 oz.. I would be willing to give it a try, and that will be a challenge being I have 2 torn rotator cuffs and havent hoisted a rifle over than my hunting rifle up to my shoulder off hand in years.. Anyone else in on this?? Comeon production class shooters lets see how we do shooting a offhand match!

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 05 December 2007

I think he's putting on his “gameface".

I hope to make the Nats in 2008, if I get there I will shoot my Production Class Savage offhand as well. It would be great to see someone get this put into the next issue of TFS, and see what the PB guys say.

Rich

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