Bullet Lube, FS 235

  • 5.8K Views
  • Last Post 02 June 2015
JeffinNZ posted this 22 May 2015

I have to respectfully disagree with some of the theories of Mr Lewis in his article in the FS 235. In the third paragraph Mr Lewis tells us “If a lead bullet comes in direct contact with the bore of the barrel then some damage to the bullet will occur.  Lead molecules can be abraded  from the bullet and the heat generated by friction can cause a slight melting of the bullet where it is in contact with the bore and this will result in bullet metal being smeared down the bore."  Plenty of us shoot bullets with bore riding noses eg: 314299 and create superb accuracy.  The bore riding nose carries no lube and is in direct contact with the barrel metal albeit an residue from previous shots.  I very seldom clean my rifles and never experience any leading from such bullets.  Experiments where I have applied a film of bullet to the bullet nose have been detrimental to accuracy.  I am not so sure that the nose of a bore riding bullet is capable of generating enough heat from friction to melt lead.  Further, if a bare lead bullet will foul in a barrel how is it that air rifle pellets do not do so?  Many modern air rifles are matching rimfire velocity with bare, unlubed projectiles. Mr Lewis in paragraph four states “Anytime you find bullet metal being tranferred to the bore it is because the bullet lube has failed in some way."  I am more of the opinion that leading is a factor of gas cutting due to too smaller diameter projectile and in this situation any lube is going to have its work cut out trying to defeat the ultra hot high pressure gas.  Glen Fryxell has written extensively about cast bullet shooting and believes bullet lube is not a lube per se but acts as a liquid piston ring around the bullet.  As the pressure builds the lube liquefies and acts as a gas seal.  Seal is the operative word here.  When a bullets properly seals the bore leading will not be a problem.  In terms of lube conditioning the bore I believe there is some merit in this statement.  Mr Lewis doesn't get into the black powder discussion however I have never accepted that BP bullets with deep grooves to carry lube to “keep fouling soft” actually ever do this.  Firstly, how does the lube escape the grooves when in significant amounts to mix with fouling and secondly, given the surface area of the inside of rifle barrel and the 50% charge of residue, there can't be enough lube to come close to keeping fouling soft.  Mr Lewis refers, in paragraph twelve, to barrel conditioning and I believe he has a point here.  In the case of BP shooting I believe the factor in managing fouling is creating a microscopic film of lube the barrel steel that prevents fouling adhering so tenaciously.  The same would apply, on a lesser scale, to smokeless powder. Again, I have to respectfully disagree with some of Mr Lewis's point but my compliments on a constructive article.

Cheers from New Zealand

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
OU812 posted this 02 June 2015

Is the air being heated by the device or pump that compresses it?

Attached Files

billglaze posted this 02 June 2015

Compressed air gets hot? Well--in the engines I flew, the compressor stages compressed the inlet air around 18 atmospheres, or more, Not only hot enough to combust jet fuel, but, if mis-directed, to actually melt aluminum and set sheet metal on fire.
Don't ask how I know this............

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

Attached Files

Brodie posted this 29 May 2015

Or to put what Ric said another way: PV=nrT. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 28 May 2015

Yep, compressing it raises temperature, decompressing lowers temperature.

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 28 May 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=804>LWesthoff

An example of just how hot compressed air through a hole gets is easily understood if you have ever used a Daisy VL. Compressed air in that system ignites solid fuel on a lead pellet and fires the rifle.

The VLs were fun I had one. Now would be a great time for a come back on that rifle from Daisy.

Gary

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 28 May 2015

mtngun,

The compressed air is ambient temperature, but when released into the bore and expands, it cools, rather than heats. Same principle as refrigerators and air conditioners work with.

I have only seen HB .38's lead if loaded with enough pressure to expand the base into the throat of the barrel. Some of the guys who shot International Pistol and used K-38's on the dueling stage at 50 meters, wanted faster loads to stabilize from slow twist S&W barrels. Backing the load off to 3.2 grains of Bullseye always solved the issue.

Attached Files

LWesthoff posted this 28 May 2015

mtngun:

To answer SOME of your questions.... Hollow base airgun pellets will not enter the barrel from the muzzle, they stop at skirt. They obviously are designed to seal the bore even before the trigger is pulled and the compressed air hits 'em.

All the (store bought) hollow base .38 wadcutters I've fired seem to have some kind of hard waxy lube on them, similar to the waxy lube on .22rf bullets. I've never had any leading problems with them - but I've never had any leading problems with my cast solid base wadcutter, Javelina lubed bullets either.

Two of my shooting buddies have recently purchased, and are now competing with high (very high) priced air rifles. These things have large tanks of compressed air integral with the forend. Neither the tanks nor the barrels are hot to the touch after firing up to 50 shots at those teeny bullseyes they use in competition.

So if the compressed air behind an airgun pellet is any hotter than the ambient temperature, I'm pretty sure it's still not nearly hot enough to enter into the leading picture.

Wes

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 28 May 2015

LWesthoff wrote: One thing that caught my attention was the question “Air rifle pellet are not lubed, and some are approaching .22lr velocities. Why don't they lead bores?"

Seems to me it probably has something to do with the fact that they're being pushed down the barrel by compressed air, not by super hot gasses generated by exploding powder. Wes, I was thinking more about what you said.   (you know you have a disease when you spend your spare time thinking about this sort of stuff  :D )

As usual, I have more questions than answers.  :cool:

What pressures do air guns operate at?

Firearms depend on high temperatures to generate pressure.  That is pretty much guaranteed by the Ideal Gas law,    T = PV/nR.    Higher chamber pressures = higher gas temperature, there's no way around it.

Air rifles may also heat up the air when they compress it (on pump-up rifles, the pump gets warm to the touch as you pump it.)   However, if you wait a while, the stored compressed air will cool down.   The Ideal Gas law guarantees that the compressed air cools further as it expands into the barrel.     

Air gun pellets usually (not always) have a hollow base.   Does the hollow base ensure a good gas seal?

Do 38 specials lead with hollow base bullets, or only with solid base bullets? (I'm not a 38 shooter so I don't know). 

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 28 May 2015

Wes, you may have a point.

I was just reading another thread on this forum about someone shooting .223 cast (if I remember right) without lube, at 1700 fps or so, and claiming good accuracy and no leading.  Though they may have “cheated” by cleaning the barrel in between strings, that wasn't clear.   Deets were sketchy.

The whole “no leading” thing is subjective, too, unless the shooter has a bore scope.   Bottom line is, does the accuracy hold up without cleaning the barrel?   

Guns seem to be very individualistic about which cast loads they will shoot well.   What works great in John Doe's gun may not stay on the target in my gun.   That's part of what makes cast bullets interesting, though.

Attached Files

LWesthoff posted this 28 May 2015

Just finished re-reading the posts on this subject. One thing that caught my attention was the question “Air rifle pellet are not lubed, and some are approaching .22lr velocities. Why don't they lead bores?"

Seems to me it probably has something to do with the fact that they're being pushed down the barrel by compressed air, not by super hot gasses generated by exploding powder.

Think maybe?

Wes

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 26 May 2015

      I think Maven's link in post #19 is the one I was thinking of.

Another page of Molly's comments on leading can be found starting at the bottom of p. 171 of Joeb's book Cast Bullets for Beginner or Expert 2nd edition   The same can be found on line as Joe explained:   "Ken Mollohan did a lot of work and wrote a lot about bullet lubrication in the book. See http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/CB-BOOK/>http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/CB-BOOK/>, look in “FILES” for the book, then “5.0 Bullet Lubrication".

joe brennan"

Attached Files

Maven posted this 26 May 2015

Ken was one of the founders of the CBA and as such, his work needs to be preserved. Here's another link:  http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?114184-Parts-for-lead-pots-furnaces

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 26 May 2015

Thanks much for the link, Maven. . I do question this: If you think that bullets can't strip the rifling, try this: Load a series of shots from very light to the highest velocity that the rifle will still shoot well. Shoot them into something that will allow you to recover the base of the bullet. Large bundles of loose cloth or paper will work well. Even fine sand will do. It will shatter the bullet nose, but the base is usually recoverable. Find the bullet after each shot and mark it. Lay them out side by side by side and look at the width of the engraving groove. You will find that (above a certain point) it gets wider and wider as the velocity increases.  . Actually I have recovered a few bullets in my day, including those fired at 2500+fps, and never saw any evidence of “stripping, ” other than minor skidding on the front band of revolver bullets.   Dr. Mann debunked the stripping claim as did the NRA Cast Bullet book.     

Cream of Wheat will firewall and keep the hot gas off the bullet. You'll find your bore remains bright, clean and completely lead-free. . But does the Cream of Wheat work by keeping the hot gas off the bullet, or does it work by acting as a scraper, similar to a gas check?

He talks a lot about leading.  Well, if you are experiencing leading that is certainly a problem, but on the other hand lots of CB loads don't lead and yet still are not accurate.   Colonel Harrison noted that it was easy to find a lube that shoots clean, the hard part was finding a lube that shoots clean and is accurate, too.

I've had the most problems with leading in revolvers, usually due to funky dimensions.   Not so much in rifles.

Today I was shooting CB's in a rifle at 2700 fps.   They left the bore clean and shiny.  But they shot patterns, not groups.   :( .  Use the Alox/beeswax lube, not something blue or red or polkadot. . My favorite lube is red, and it outshoots Alox/beeswax. :P

Later Molly amends his statement on “stripping” to suggest that what he actually observed was gas cutting: . Etching continued to grow progressively worse on the base band as it progressed further up the bullet. And as the etching progressed, so did the enlargement,  . Agree that gas cutting is bad news.

Attached Files

Maven posted this 25 May 2015

John, Here's a link to some of Ken's writings:  http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?116741-If-you-think-so-try-this>http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?116741-If-you-think-so-try-this Also, after having read Jim Lewis' article on bullet lube in TFS #235, I was quite impressed with it.  His point about a thin film of lubricant making a significant difference on bearing life, or rather failure, is well taken as I've seen the results of dry bearing failure three times (even got a nice pc. of Babbitt to enrich my alloy too!).*  While Jim's argument is certainly true of machinery, is the relationship between a lubed cast bullet and gun barrel the same, or at least comparable? *The Catskill Mountain Railroad's B - B truck (rod driven) diesel locomotive experienced wheel bearing failure due to lack of a lube film or any lube several times when I volunteered there.  Repairs were expensive and took weeks, putting us out of service during the height of the season. The other failure was also due to journal oil not getting to the friction bearing on the trailing truck (on the fireman's side) of New York, Susquehanna & Western's steam locomotive #142 (2-8-2 wheel arrangement) in the midst of an 80+ mile fan trip (Fall Foliage, apple picking:  Little Ferry, N.J. -> Warwick, N.Y.).  Not fun to be side tracked (literally) in Sparta, N.J. then wait for hours to replace the bearing (had to be picked up in Binghampton, N.Y., then fitted).  It was a long, cold night, but we fixed the problem and ran the next day without problems.  Btw, the cause of the failure was the collapse of a ~12” x 14” lube “pillow” (looks like a big mop) that fits into the journal box and wicks oil up onto the bearing.   

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 25 May 2015

mtngun wrote: John, I hope that someday I'll have time to submit articles for the TFS.   It's something I would enjoy doing.

You practically have it written in your post #10 above.

At the moment I am waiting for an experiment to come along that provides some answers about what works.    

That will be great we can call it the “unified field theory of cast bullets” -- but don't expect it too soon.  It seems like most of my experiments result in more questions than answers.   

Welcome to the club. John

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 25 May 2015

Maven wrote:Maybe it's time to republish Ken's articles? Good idea.  As I remember they were quite a while back. i will start looking but I hope someone else knows when they were published.  The last time I saw something by Molly reciting his results on the leading/lube tests was actually on cast boolits and of course I don't know in what thread those were either. I do remember Goodsteel responding to them. Maybe he would know. 

I really miss Molly's contributions. John

Attached Files

gpidaho posted this 25 May 2015

I got to the party late and sadly Molly had already left. Ken was a remarkable and insightful man in the cast bullet world. I really enjoy reading the information he left for us. GP

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 25 May 2015

Maven wrote:  He published his results in TFS and elsewhere.  Maybe it's time to republish Ken's articles?I for one would be interested in those articles.   

I would gladly pay for the back issues if there were made available.   I've got the CD for #95 - #190 but don't recall seeing them in that collection?

Attached Files

Maven posted this 25 May 2015

Mollohan destroyed the idea that bullet “lubricant” lubricates bullets in the sense of providing a thin slippery film between two metals as oil does in an engine. He came at the question from several directions with a series of well thought out experiments and all of them showed that so called bullet “lube” don't act as lubricants.  He published his results in TFS and elsewhere.  

Maybe it's time to republish Ken's articles?

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 25 May 2015

John, I hope that someday I'll have time to submit articles for the TFS.   It's something I would enjoy doing.

At the moment I am waiting for an experiment to come along that provides some answers about what works.     It seems like most of my experiments result in more questions than answers.   :D

Attached Files

Show More Posts
Close