2nd time with 85 gr. .224
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- Last Post 24 July 2015
Gary,
The bullet I'll be trying out is an NEI 224 72. It's an old one. Walt was running the business when I ordered it.
As for providing the info you want. Not gonna waste my time now.
Sense of humor? Your wearing mine out. Give it a rest. OK?
Pete
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Humor helps.
If you size your whole bullet .219-.220", you will have so much gas blow-by that I'd be concerned about having squibb rounds with the bullet not exiting the muzzle. That diameter is about the same as your Land to Land diameter and would leave the grooves in your barrel open to atmosphere.
A drawing of your bullet and it's as cast dimensions with your alloy would help. Will you provide that?
Gary
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Most all 223 have short freebore.
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Gary,
I was just taking a guess at the throat. It's short. Take my word on that.
Notice the heading on this thread has .224 in it rather than a more normal .225. This is because the larger size will shove the bullets driving bands flush with the case mouth.
The other odd thing about my rifle it has the long action. One other Mod. 12 I know in .223 has the short action. As far as I know the short action is standard as “sleds” are only available for the short action.
Seems to me jamming a bullet into the throat will raise a ridge at the end of where your “jam” ends which will eventually cause the problem that locked the gun up recently.
I suppose sizing the whole bullet down to .219-.220 would be something to try. Ain't gonna do it now.
Right now I'll shoot it the “normal” way and work from there. By the way... You guys have me LMAO. All this talk and no one has asked what bullet I'll be using.
Pete
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Where are the targets? Did Pete take his targets and go home?67 posts about maybe 30 shots, and the targets are gone.On the 4th page, about a set of targets that's maybe 1/3 of what is normally shot in a session, and now gone. Maybe that's not all bad.joe b. Bored stiff!
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"I have been thinking about sizing the forward driving bands till they allow the GC to get up into the neck where they belong.” Essentially, what that does is re-create the bore riding dilemma with all it's entrapping. I am saying, just walk away from the failures.
Use a softer alloy and slam your action shut instead . Sizing forward bands to .219-220 will shotgun your groups really bad. Slamming a soft oversize bullet into the throat and ball seat will shrink your groups.
Size your bullet full length to throat diameter even if your throat is short, but still seat to the length that engages the ball seat .01. close the action and the bullet will be sized and chamber past your short throat. Just push the bolt. Check to see if your bullets seat deeper on chambering....they likely won't seat deeper or get stuck if you polish your bore as I have done and your alloy is #2 with tumble lube. They will fit tight and shoot well. This is such a basic thing, I'm surprised you don't know it.
I would really like to see and handle and measure a chamber casting from your rifle......Have YOU?????? The 1/4” throat you mention does not sound reasonable and is not SAAMI.
It is not a death trip to seat your cast bullet well into the taper of the ball seat and let the taper swage your bullet. It will make your groups smaller.
Admittedly, my suggestion is baloney if your bore is not polished like I do mine with a BoreSnake and Chrome polish as I have posted in the Accuracy section of this forum. The taper of the lands in the ball seat area from the throat end up to the full Land to Land size will polish for a smooth glide of cast bullets. The taper of the lands will work like launch ramps. Your launch area will work better when polished for cast bullets. The bullet will swage into a firm seat in the ball seat area. Again, that is a simple, old school basic for cast bullet accuracy.
Gary
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John's 80 gr. bullet is verylong and may require chambering one at a time after throating longer than 1/16". Measuring will be needed to make sure. I believe a faster rate of twist (1/7 - 1/9) is needed also
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Gary,
I have been thinking about sizing the forward driving bands till they allow the GC to get up into the neck where they belong.
The reason for sizing the driving bands down is because there is practically no throat in my rifle. 1/4” if I'm lucky.
This will mean sizing the driving bands down to .219"-.220” so it will slide up into the bore. Considering the problems that amount of sizing caused with the NOE 80 gr. bullet I don't hold out a lot of hope for the 75 gr. bullet.
Pete
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Ken,
Appreciate the offer,but at this time I want to keep the rifle as it came from the factory. Running the throat out the 1/4” or so needed might make it useless for a shorter bullet. Did that once. Will only do it again if I think the longer bullet work.
Right now I'not sure a .80” - .90” bullet will even work in my particular rifle.
But I will certainly keep your offer in mind.
Pete My Remington 223 magazine will allow bullets to be seated longer. Cutting the throat 1/8” - 1/4” longer @.224 diameter only helps with cast and jacketed. The longer throating helps support bullet better before launch, especially some rifles with factory loose case neck and chamber clearance.
Be careful not to cut too deep and use correct snug fit pilot bushing...my Remington required the largest ptg pilot bushing (.219?).
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Ken,
Appreciate the offer,but at this time I want to keep the rifle as it came from the factory. Running the throat out the 1/4” or so needed might make it useless for a shorter bullet. Did that once. Will only do it again if I think the longer bullet work.
Right now I'not sure a .80” - .90” bullet will even work in my particular rifle.
But I will certainly keep your offer in mind.
Pete
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pete ... i have some 0.224 throaters if that would help you ... if you could use them there i9 would loan one to you ... or since it's a savage if you ship the barrel down to me and a couple cartridges loaded the way you desire, i would throat them to just touch ... or as you like ... i have only 224 throaters not 225 throaters .
ken
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Your 75 gr bullet with the driving bands taking up 3/4 the bullet length sounds like a good bullet choice to me. The .225646 bullet I shoot has a longer portion of length for the driving bands and works well for me sized to a sliding fit in the chamber throat. My 646 bullets weigh 59 gr all up. They have a tiny nose and a long bearing area. This works easily and well. I just size to the throat and seat to .01” engagement of the ball seat. and they shoot 1MOA/100yds in my 1:12 barrel varmint .223. I don't have a great match for my twist and I don't see that matter.
Try sizing and seating as I mention and I believe your groups will shrink unless you use Linotype or some hard alloy that is beyond your load requirement. I'd say ignore how deep you perceive the bullet in the case, just seat to an LOA to engage the ball seat .01".
The .01” engagement has not been problematic for me. I think this is true in my application because I have optimized for it in these ways:
My #2 alloy is not hard enough to get the bullets stuck, Unfired loaded rounds extract OK with a mark from the ball seat. I avoid un-chambering them and distorting the bullets. I shoot them when chambered. The simple tumble lube I use helps the bullet slide into the ball seat engagement. I see that as a plus for a stable start and believe your 75 gr bullet will do the same thing with #2 alloy and tumble lube.
A very possible factor that helps my load work with that much engagement of the ball seat is my loading methods at the press that may be very different than yours. I use no brass crimp on the bullet, my Lee Collet neck sizing die gives me good neck tension on the bullet and it doesn't slip upon chambering but the bullet is swaged into the ball seat firmly and repeatedly each shot. My bore polishing is significant for the bullet swaging into the ball seat. It helps the slide and lessens the chance for a bullet to get stuck and pull out of a case upon un-chambering. I run a tight visible and verifiable fit of the bullet to both the throat and the ball seat.
Gary
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John,
Sorry to drag your name into the fray. If you read some the above posts you'll note the Sav. is fixed and why. Think I'll have to put the NOE aside as there seems to be to much sizing of the and particles of Lead were jamming the bolt.
I do have another mold that casts a 75 gr. bullet but the driving bands take up about 3/4 the the length. As a result the base of the GC is about even with base of the shoulder. I've posted a question asking if there was anyone who'd done any work with bullets seated that deep. Conventional wisdom says this is not good. No responses yet.
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Pete wrote: “Both John A. and I think the LENGTH of the bullet is marginal."
Gary responded: “If the bore riding nose fits, then the length of the bullet isn't short because the nose is a bearing area. That is one basis for disagreeing with both you and John on that....if that is what you are both saying and agreeing on."
Gary, No disrespect intended, but I don't understand your comment in response to Pete's statement. i think there is a communication problem.
Since my name has come up what I said was the .9” length of my 80-85 grain bullets were stabilized in a nine inch twist but not by much. I say this because at low speeds they sometimes make oblong holes at 200 yards even in good groups and also they won't stabilize in a 10” twist Hart barrel I have.
John
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Show why you think I am wrong.... OK, here is some:
Both John A. and I think the LENGTH of the bullet is marginal. If the bore riding nose fits, then the length of the bullet isn't short because the nose is a bearing area. That is one basis for disagreeing with both you and John on that....if that is what you are both saying and agreeing on.
I'll use whatever M.V. it takes to get stability & accuracy. I also don't believe juggling velocity to stabilize a bullet design is anywhere near important with cast bullets as jacketed . I don't think you will reach the point of stability you are looking for with that bullet for a reason you haven't overcome yet in your project. I suspect bullet fit and bore condition needs thorough addressing in your project and that a perfect fit is more critical as bullet hardness goes up and also, the further you are away higher in hardness from the alloy hardness matching the load, the less stable the bullet will be in the barrel....because the size is then more critical due to a hard bullet.
the faster the M.V. the harder the bullet has to be. You completely disagree with chapters in Lee's book on ballistic pressure and alloy selection that I base my success on. So, yes, I completely disagree with you. You believe your theory on MV and alloy hardness. I disagree with the whole lot of shooters who believe that and suspect they really never actually check the fit of their Linotype bullets, bore condition and they also fight with nose riding bullets. Please post pictures and data of your targets proving your point Search me. Now you have me wondering if you are the ignored, and blocked on my settings JoeB ghostwriting.
Gary
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Gary,
My goal is to see if it will work. Both John A. and I think the LENGTH of the bullet is marginal. Wgt. has nothing to with whether a bullet is suitable for a given twist. I thot you knew that?
I'm not concerned with velocity. I'll use whatever M.V. it takes to get stability & accuracy. You might be right in that I won't reach that point. But.... I will have proved it to my satisfaction and not from “conventional wisdom” or armchair shooters.
Now one more thing you seemed to have missed in a previous message in this thread. I have found over some 60 years of shooting cast Lead bullets is that the smaller the cal. and the faster the M.V. the harder the bullet has to be. I figure with this series of tests a .22 cal. bullet being pushed at 2000 + fps in order to get stability/accuracy it will take an alloy like Lino. So this is how I will proceed.
Now you seem to disagree. I'm willing to be proven wrong. Please post pictures and data of your targets proving your point. As they say on another I belong to..... No pictures it never happened! Talk is cheap. About all I've heard so far is opinions with nothing to back it up. “You oght to try this powder” ” I THINK this is what you need to” On and on. Show why you think I am wrong and I'll give it a try considering the 1st paragraph above as to what I'm trying to prove.
Pete
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Pete, that 85 gr .224 is a heavy bullet for your caliber. Either it will match to your rifle or not. This has been going on for 3 pages of shotgun problem solving. Personally, I believe you will add to your difficulty casting the bullet in Linotype and shotgun farther into nowhere land. Harder alloys are more finicky to throat fit than alloys matched to your load level. The bullet won't obdurate at all if it is too hard for your load level. The right hardness for the load will obdurate and will be sized upon firing for a wobble free trip down the bore.
If you do like bore riding noses on bullets, you are finding what you have to put up with or change about them to get them to shoot. This is also exacerbated with Linotype simply because it is hard.
I'd recommend pure lead if you plan subsonic velocity or #2 alloy for any velocity above subsonic. You can also alloy Linotype and soft jacketed scrap at 1:1 for a BHN 15 recreational alloy as I use above subsonic.
Gary
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Gary,
I see you want to continue along the hijack route too. Well have fun guys I'm oughtta here.
Pete
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Bill,
Then please delete your message so as not confuse the thrust of this thread. You have a thread going on the Swift. I find it troubling that you should feel the need to post comments a out what you plan on doing with it. My paranoid conjure up some really bad about your reasons for doing so.
Pete
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The Lyman 225646 has lovers and haters. I like it and the chief complaint from the haters is my favorite feature of the 646 design. It is not a bore rider with a bore diameter nose. The 646 has a very short pretty useless nose with a quick taper ogive to the tip. The rest of the entire bullet length is .225' bearing bands and it is sized when shot. I like that and believe this design stabilizes quicker than a bore rider with a bore ride diameter nose.
I think it will do well in your Swift. Don't size it or only size/check it to the largest diameter that will chamber in your rifle. Seat it to engage the ball seat of your chamber or as long as your rifle will handle.
Of course if you are a bore rider aficionado, this bullet is useless to you and will shoot poorly because you don't like the design. Mine shoot great for me and I have never had a reason to buy a different .22 bullet mold. I only have the one 225646. I use Aluminum checks, tumble lube lightly before size/check and again after size/check, I size at .225” for my rifle. My bullets drop nicely in #2 alloy at .225-0+.0005” I couldn't ask for a better drop size for my rifle. My bullet size/check die is a Lee that I have honed to size .225"
Gary
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