ACCURACY RECIPES
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- Last Post 19 November 2016
Get and read “Cast Bullets” by E.H.Harrison (NRA publication). Article on Orientation and Selection: Two keys to Accuracy p. 140-42 by Frank Marshall. I have kept records and orientation does help. Don't ever say “no” to things we hear from others. Lots of assumptions and bad info given that are taken as gospel.BobIowa
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John, Thank you for a dose of reality. If you can shoot one MOA in shoulder to shoulder matches, you can be a winner. I don't see very many stepping up to the line. Best wishes, Ric
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OU812,
Yes, I think you would be competitive with your 223. It would be great to see another shooter competing with the 30 caliber shooters with a 22. I think it would be good for the sport to have more variety. A great bunch of shooters have regular matches at the Charlotte Rifle & Pistol Club. It is about 230 miles from you but I think you would enjoy the interaction with other shooters. If you are interested I could give you contact information.
Another possibility would be to compete in our postal matches. It costs $4 or $5 for a set of targets to be shot on your home range on the honor system and if you win you get your money back. Give it a try. John
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The internet is filled with keyboard shooters shooting cast bullets under 1MOA and sitting back and saying how easy it is if you just know how. When challenged they even sometimes promise to show up at matches -- but never appear. I have begun to think they are in the same category as Big Foot and Nessie, often heard about but never seen.
John
This is what has turned off the people I talk and shoot with! After reading things like this; they, to a man, ask me why I try to deal with people who do such things. I've shown these folks what I've done and they show me. I know several people who have seen these things, from me and others, and still won't believe after seeing it done right in front of them. Talk about stubborn!!!!!!! I'm not going to travel to try to prove anything to you or anyone else. If you want to actually see things like this, you will probably have to travel in different circles.
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I just came back from the CBA Nationals where 14 experienced shooters traveled up to 2,000 miles to do their best shooting in production rifle classes. None of them could keep their aggregates of four 5-shot groups under 1MOA and 12 of them were shooting 30 caliber rifles that are acknowledged to be easier to tame than 22s.
Sounds like I have a good chance of winning with my 223 Remington
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I'm sure several people here can make your rifle shoot a lot better than you've done. And it is rocket science when so many people can't do better than you've shown. It's not that hard to get under 1 MOA either using the right parameters (which have been in print for the last 100 years)!
With all due respect I would like to know where all these super shooters are hiding who find it easy to make a production rifle shoot averages under 1MOA with cast bullets. I have been at this for over fifty years in many parts of the country and have never run into even one of them. I just came back from the CBA Nationals where 14 experienced shooters traveled up to 2,000 miles to do their best shooting in production rifle classes. None of them could keep their aggregates of four 5-shot groups under 1MOA and 12 of them were shooting 30 caliber rifles that are acknowledged to be easier to tame than 22s. These are folks who have devoted years to reading all the advice available and working to perfect their loading and shooting abilities. Strange that none of them find it easy to get under 1MOA. Of course they have all shot tiny groups from time to time but any honest shooter knows that these occasional small groups mean nothing if you shoot long enough with any rifle you will get one.
The internet is filled with keyboard shooters shooting cast bullets under 1MOA and sitting back and saying how easy it is if you just know how. When challenged they even sometimes promise to show up at matches -- but never appear. I have begun to think they are in the same category as Big Foot and Nessie, often heard about but never seen.
John
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This display of behavior is nothing new. Making a rifle shoot isn't hard as long as one listens to what the rifle wants and also knows how to shoot.
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Temper, temper..........that won't get you anywhere, calm down and stop running in the same rut. You might have done testing, but it sure wasn't exhaustive or scientific. I'm sure several people here can make your rifle shoot a lot better than you've done. And it is rocket science when so many people can't do better than you've shown. It's not that hard to get under 1 MOA either using the right parameters (which have been in print for the last 100 years)!
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First YOU must be able to shoot a rifle with known accuracy off the bench to its potential.
It must be a 30 caliber, no cheating with 22's. Borrow one! Second get good new cases fire with a normal jacketed load, neck size the cases. Buy quality match grade jacketed bullets. Seat the bullets 0.010” off the lands. Load with a recommended powder just below maximum. Shoot at 100 yards on a no-wind day, 10 shot groups. A good production rifle should do an 1 1/2 inch. Anything over 2” means something is wrong with the rifle. There is a lot of variation in production rifles, there is nothing wrong with this, a 2 inch rifle will kill game by the truckload. If your rifle shoots close to an inch you have a very good one, this is luck. A custom barrel (really a custom chamber) should shoot under an inch. Now you know the rifles potential. Clean out the jacketed fouling and try cast bullets. They are lots more fun than jacketed. Read the previous posts they are good advice. Steve
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Have you noticed that the shooters that seem to have it figured out do not post.
On this forum you here opinions where one guy says something and somebody else says the direct opposite. The new guys have to discern where the truth really is. It gets really old trying to tell people what matters!!!!... and they give up doing so, after all they found out and you can also. Playing follow the leader only gets you so far. What is needed is someone who does know gives you guys the information, then you can haggle it to death. The absolute best way to learn is with a production rifle.
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Have you noticed that the shooters that seem to have it figured out do not post. Ed Krasny comes to mind. I know he shoots a big heavy rifle with big Krieger barrel. Maybe one day I will be in their league and ignore this forum.
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First YOU must be able to shoot a rifle with known accuracy off the bench to its potential. It must be a 30 caliber, no cheating with 22's. Borrow one! Second get good new cases fire with a normal jacketed load, neck size the cases. Buy quality match grade jacketed bullets. Seat the bullets 0.010” off the lands. Load with a recommended powder just below maximum. Shoot at 100 yards on a no-wind day, 10 shot groups. A good production rifle should do an 1 1/2 inch. Anything over 2” means something is wrong with the rifle. There is a lot of variation in production rifles, there is nothing wrong with this, a 2 inch rifle will kill game by the truckload. If your rifle shoots close to an inch you have a very good one, this is luck. A custom barrel (really a custom chamber) should shoot under an inch. Now you know the rifles potential. Clean out the jacketed fouling and try cast bullets. They are lots more fun than jacketed. Read the previous posts they are good advice. Steve
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I think it is very difficult to separate poor bench technique from an poor results because of the rifle. I have spent close to 4,000 rounds over the last three years searching for accuracy in 3 different rifles. Here are a couple of conclusions of mine and let me note they are likely worth exactly what you are paying for them.
First 5 shot groups make it almost impossible to separate poor shooting from a poor barrel. Ten shot groups are better. I have finally settled on 3 ten shot groups overlaid using Excel and graphics. Some surprising patterns can emerge with a detailed enough picture.
Second certain group shapes will give us a fairly good indication of the underlying problem. Two groups within a group is one of my maladies. Another is the dreaded oval shaped group tipped at a 30 degree angle from vertical. these are both shooting problems. If your group center consistently moves between the 3 10 shot groups, there is likely a shooter problem. And so forth.
On the other hand vertical stringing is usually a load problem. A “loose” 30 shot string (relative to the shooters ability) is a load or rifle problem. A horizontal oval is often a wind problem, etc. Poor bench technique almost never results in a large but uniformly distributed 30 shot group.
These are only my observations about my own abilities, nothing more.
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JoeI don't think we realize how important bench skills come into our shooting. I will try and put something together and post on this issue. One know factor among bench rest shooters is that a rifle is proven to shoot better in bench rest when the front rest is position just ahead of the action. I tried it, and darn if it didn't improve things. A combination of small things can and will add up to tighten up groups. Again,ability of the shooter needs to be given more credit than what we do. Was it Dr. Hudson; famed schuetzen shooter, that shot 200yd groups with BP and breech seating that were not beaten for many many years. Have a good day.Bob
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Something we may fail to mention is the ability of the man/woman behind the rifle and set up at the bench. I have seen different shooters with different abilities take the same rifle and it is amazing the results in group size. Also set up is crucial. This might make a good separate thread. I watch the results of certain CBA matches that are posted in the journal. Those that are many times at the top of the list are using the same bullets, powder etc as the rest of the shooters. Too often we think they have a rifle with better accuracy than the rest= wrong. Shooters abilities vary, and set up can make a difference in the results.You all have a great day.Bob
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Something we may fail to mention is the ability of the man/woman behind the rifle and set up at the bench. I have seen different shooters with different abilities take the same rifle and it is amazing the results in group size. Also set up is crucial. This might make a good separate thread. I watch the results of certain CBA matches that are posted in the journal. Those that are many times at the top of the list are using the same bullets, powder etc as the rest of the shooters. Too often we think they have a rifle with better accuracy than the rest= wrong. Shooters abilities vary, and set up can make a difference in the results.You all have a great day.Bob
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twist is not the only factor in bullet stabilization .
we are pretty sure that our soft lead castings are not as accurate as mj .... because we can't keep them perfect by the time they exit the muzzle . fit? shape? god's will ?
maybe a 14 twist outperforms its predictions because it expels a better ( less distorted ) bullet ...than a less friendly 9 twist ?
a 14 twist might stabilize an un-molested but too long bullet ... where a 9 twist can't stabilize the shorter but bent bullet .
as usual, it is the combination ...
and remember the slower more gentle 14 twist tends to deliver less distorted bullets .... many think ...
ken
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joeb:: i am impressed with the repeatability of your results ....a decent indicator of validity .
i also am impressed with your ability to shoot cast at 200 meters ... under 4 inches ... WITHOUT WIND FLAGS !!... even on ” calm ” ( no such thing ) days, i would expect wind drift of 2 to 8 inches .
congrats ...
ken
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John, Let's just take one on the “will not” list. Will not use wind flags. Tell me how many at the upcoming weekend shoot do not use wind flags. I'll make a guess and say everybody will be using windflags.
Most will be weight segregating cases, uniforming and cleaning cases. Almost all in the Heavy and Unlimited classes will shoot neck turned brass.
How does just banging away in a match without regard to conditions or without fitting the cases to the chamber work for a new shooter. Or would he use his first performance as a baseline and then work on adding things from the “will not” list.What we have here is a failure to communicate. I thought I was clear, but I guess not. I've shown a recipe here to get a rifle to shoot below 2", say 1.5” to 2". Now, how to get the averages to get .5” = 1/2” smaller. Say the rifle shoots 1.75” averages, how do we get it t shoot 1.25", or better, averages? Some steps will get us there, some steps-or combinations of those steps-won't. Setting up wind flags and learning to vary aiming point with wind, won't. Changing the powder, or the charge, frequently will.
This is FOR the beginner, to show him where to concentrate on his accuracy search. So he doesn't waste time weighing powder charges or bullets or agonizing over alloy composition or hardness. If he want's to put up wind flags, God bless him.
Yep.... it was a failure to communicate. I see where you are headed with this. I assumed wrong.
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