Match Grade Accuracy, Velocity and the Bullet

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  • Last Post 03 April 2017
frnkeore posted this 29 November 2016

I would like to ask those that shoot in the target rifle classes (HVY, UNR & UNP) of CBA matches, what do you think is the thing that effects the accuracy, at the target the most, at 200 yards? And the same question of those that shoot in the lower velocity classes like Production, Hunter and Milsurp. Frank

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frnkeore posted this 03 April 2017

Egan MX4 30 ARD, Start Vel 2000 fps    

 

100 yd, Vel 1723, Wind drift 2.44 10 mph @ 90 deg

 

200 yd, Vel 1482, Wind drift 8.89    

 

Paul Jones .322 x 1.22 x 218 gr, Start Vel 1500 fps    

 

100 yd, Vel 1364, Wind drift 2.13

 

200 yd, Vel 1248, Wind drift 7.27    

 

These figures are slightly different from my first post, because I used exact BC's, rather than rounded BC's.    

 

Now, this is to the point of my thread, if we take that MX4 30 ARD and put a more aerodynamic nose on it, as pictured below, we get the following:  

 

MX4 30 ARD, Modified    

 

100 yd, Vel 1796, Wind Drift 1.87 10 mph @ 90 deg

 

200 yd, Vel 1610, Wind drift 6.37  

 

A 2.52” improvement in wind drift @ 200 yds bit only .57 @ 100.  

 

Frank

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R. Dupraz posted this 03 April 2017

joe b and frnkeore:

 

How about continuing your personal arrangements and conversation, a waste of forum space, by PM and get back to the point of the original question which I thought was an interesting one.

  

 

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frnkeore posted this 03 April 2017

IT DEPENDS ON THE “TRUE” OR “LONG TERM” ACCURACY OF THE GUN/SHOOTER/ETC.

IF THE LTA < .5, FIVE GROUPS WILL AVG < .5 MORE OFTEN THAN 4 GROUPS. IF THE LTA > .5, 4 GROUPS WILL AVG  < .5 MORE OFTEN THAN 5 GROUPS. THIS BECAUSE OF THE CENTRAL LIMIT THEOREM, STD OF AVGS VS STD POP.

Can you explain this in easy to understand english?

I'm just asking what the probabily is of the averages being the same for 4 and 5 target matches and which one would average larger and by how much. I would think that with your 16 year data base of 4 target results (and maybe a few 5 target) that there would be statistics to support the difficulty of the 5th target, in percentage of the size increase of the fifth target. Is there such a statistical program?

 

Frank

ANY RANGE, ALL SHOT ONE DAY IN THE NEXT 6 MONTHS, 100 YARDS, 5 SHOT GROUPS,  4 RECORD TARGETS, NONE DISCARDED, UNLIMITED SIGHTERS, 48 HR NOTICE TO ME HERE TO ALERT MY WITNESS.

PUT THE RESULTS HERE, I'LL TELL YOU WHERE TO SEND THE $1000

joe b.

 

To be fair and above board, the $1000 on each side will have to go into a escrow account, held by a bank, until the agreed results are presented to the bank.

 

Other wise, come to the range of my choice and we will have someone hold the money for us (or your rep).

 

Frank

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joeb33050 posted this 03 April 2017

Hmmmm, my take is Frank can take Joe's money............ as can quite a few other folks. Experience does not trump technical know-how.

 

I've got another $1000 for you, ready?

joe b.

 

About the same reply as Frank..... I live in Illinois, come visit with your money, you won't leave with it though. CBA standards............................

*****************************************************************************************

YOU WROTE “Hmmmm, my take is Frank can take Joe's money". I'VE GOT $1000 THAT SAYS YOU'RE WRONG. MONEY TALKS,... ARE YOU IN?

I DON'T HAVE TO GO TO CA, AND WOULD NEVER INTENTIONALLY GO TO IL.

joe b.

 

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joeb33050 posted this 03 April 2017

BTW, regarding the $1000 bet, we will need to use the CBA standard of four, 5 shot groups.

FINE.

 

After all this is the CBA forum and you generally talk about CBA match results. 

But, you seem to like mixing apples with oranges, if it's to your adavantage.

That bring up another math question........ what is the mathmatical difference in the difficulty of a four, 5 shot group Vs a five, 5 shot group? What is the probability that one of the five, 5 shot groups will be larger than one of the four, five shot groups?

IT DEPENDS ON THE “TRUE” OR “LONG TERM” ACCURACY OF THE GUN/SHOOTER/ETC.

IF THE LTA < .5, FIVE GROUPS WILL AVG < .5 MORE OFTEN THAN 4 GROUPS. IF THE LTA > .5, 4 GROUPS WILL AVG  < .5 MORE OFTEN THAN 5 GROUPS. THIS BECAUSE OF THE CENTRAL LIMIT THEOREM, STD OF AVGS VS STD POP.

 

Frank

ANY RANGE, ALL SHOT ONE DAY IN THE NEXT 6 MONTHS, 100 YARDS, 5 SHOT GROUPS,  4 RECORD TARGETS, NONE DISCARDED, UNLIMITED SIGHTERS, 48 HR NOTICE TO ME HERE TO ALERT MY WITNESS.

PUT THE RESULTS HERE, I'LL TELL YOU WHERE TO SEND THE $1000

joe b.

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frnkeore posted this 03 April 2017

OK, you guys are getting personal and acting not in the interest of the group. End this bickering, or it all goes away. Ric Bowman, Moderator.

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I'm a little confused Ric.

How is asking Joe to clearify misleading statements a personal attack?

This was a thread, posted by me, regarding 200 yards and what people think about a bullets accuracy at 200 yards, not 100 yards.

If your talking about the bet, it is OT but, Joe offered, I just accepted.

Frank

 

 

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Larry Gibson posted this 03 April 2017

"Most CB shooters seem to approach shooting more as an exercise in a fundamental religion with a strict, inconvenient, rigid, far-fetched, and never changing set of truths rather than a body of knowledge that can be added to by the scientific method. More funding is not going to cure this problem."

 

That is exactly the problem and is why we progress little as a collective group if any. Many individuals are progressing. 

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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RicinYakima posted this 02 April 2017

OK, you guys are getting personal and acting not in the interest of the group. End this bickering, or it all goes away. Ric Bowman, Moderator.

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45 2.1 posted this 02 April 2017

Hmmmm, my take is Frank can take Joe's money............ as can quite a few other folks. Experience does not trump technical know-how.

 

I've got another $1000 for you, ready?

joe b.

 

About the same reply as Frank..... I live in Illinois, come visit with your money, you won't leave with it though. CBA standards............................

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frnkeore posted this 02 April 2017

BTW, regarding the $1000 bet, we will need to use the CBA standard of four, 5 shot groups. After all this is the CBA forum and you generally talk about CBA match results. 

But, you seem to like mixing apples with oranges, if it's to your adavantage.

That bring up another math question........ what is the mathmatical difference in the difficulty of a four, 5 shot group Vs a five, 5 shot group? What is the probability that one of the five, 5 shot groups will be larger than one of the four, five shot groups?

Frank

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frnkeore posted this 02 April 2017

"ASSRA match results report only the BEST target, following the monkeys/typewriters/hamlet principle."

” I NEVER SAID THAT ALL ASSRA MATCHES ARE RE-ENTRY."  

The above iare YOUR quotes, Joe. They seem to contradict each other.

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Two points come to mind (there are many others), did you test shooting off of the barrel against shooting off the forearm and did you do primer tests with your loads? There are 4 basic primers, SP, SR, SP mag and SR mag, plus many brands of them.

A. IT'S A PISTOL.

B. NO, HAVE YOU?

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A. I believe your pistol has both a forarm and a barrel to shoot of of. I know my XP100 does.

B. Yes, I usually test primers. Two powders that I know that primers make a big difference on is 4759 & 300MP and of course BP, you should try that one It doesn't make any difference with IMR4227 in my tests.

Have you tested primers with TiteGroup? If so, what do the targets look like?

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HOW ABOUT YOU, FRANK? I'LL BET YOU $1000 THAT YOU CAN'T COME TO ANY RANGE AND SHOOT 5 5-SHOT GROUPS AVERAGING <.5. READY? 

I'll take you up on that, if we meet in Modesto, CA! Put up or shut up, I say

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You quote my question but you missed the important part of it. If you go back and re-read it, it says 200 yards, that was the point of the question.

WHAT QUESTION?

Go back and read the OP

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You state:

Accuracy is not affected, at least in the 1-1.5 inch group area, by the shooter or his technique 

And then you say:

MY EXPERIENCE LEVEL. SUPURB. 

So, is this about only you or is it for the masses? Help us understand.

And lastly, why do you alway use the ASSRA standard of five, 5 shot groups, rather than the CBA standard of four, 5 shot groups?

Frank

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joeb33050 posted this 02 April 2017

Hmmmm, my take is Frank can take Joe's money............ as can quite a few other folks. Experience does not trump technical know-how.

 

I've got another $1000 for you, ready?

joe b.

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45 2.1 posted this 02 April 2017

Hmmmm, my take is Frank can take Joe's money............ as can quite a few other folks. Experience does not trump technical know-how.

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joeb33050 posted this 02 April 2017

Joe,

You quote my question but you missed the important part of it. If you go back and re-read it, it says 200 yards, that was the point of the question.

WHAT QUESTION?

 

"Accuracy is not affected, at least in the 1-1.5 inch group area, by the shooter or his technique, the bench equipment, the reloading equipment or technique, the powder-given that the powder works with jacketed, the brass or the primers."

I think you'll get opposition to match shooters on that statement or anyone that experiments with devoloping loads.

I HAVE DATA!  YOU CLAIM TO “THINK".

 

Two points come to mind (there are many others), did you test shooting off of the barrel against shooting off the forearm and did you do primer tests with your loads? There are 4 basic primers, SP, SR, SP mag and SR mag, plus many brands of them.

A. IT'S A PISTOL.

B. NO, HAVE YOU?

 

 

ou also don't qualify a shooters experience level. I know many people that can't shoot well off the bench with a UnR.

 

MY EXPERIENCE LEVEL. SUPURB.

And last, you didn't answer my quest about how many ASSRA matches are marke “Single Entry Only". I ask only because I don't want people mislead about ASSRA matches. That's important to me because it's where I stated and my roots in this sport.

COUNT THEM. I NEVER SAID THAT ALL ASSRA MATCHES ARE RE-ENTRY.

 

Frank

WE HAD A SNOWBIRD AT THE RANGE A YEAR AGO BRAGGING ABOUT HIS SS RIFLES UP NORTH, AND CLAIMING TO SHOOT <.5” 100 YARD 5 SHOT 5 GROUP AVGS.

I OFFERED HIM A BET: MY $1000 AGAINST HIS $1000 THAT HE COULDN'T COME TO THE RANGE AND SHOOT A <.5” 100 YARD 5 SHOT 5 GROUP AVERAGE. HE HASN'T BEEN SEEN SINCE.

HOW ABOUT YOU, FRANK? I'LL BET YOU $1000 THAT YOU CAN'T COME TO ANY RANGE AND SHOOT 5 5-SHOT GROUPS AVERAGING <.5. READY?

(It ain't like the 3rd grade now, is it?)

 

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45 2.1 posted this 02 April 2017

MarkinEllensburg wrote:
   It is probably a different discussion  but how should a bullet fit the throat? I would think that there is a difference between bore riding and non bore riding bullets and both must work some of the time.

 

Bullets wear the throat........ some, (depending on material, heat and alloy) wear it faster. It erodes into a irregular curvilinear tapered cone. There are specific points where the wear is fairly constant (this was determined from overlaying the results of 100's of impact throat slugs checking wear from different age rifles).... you fit those points. What you want is for the bullet to gradually (if anything that happens this fast can be called gradual) engage (instead of all at once as that limits the pressure/velocity/accuracy that you can achieve) and line up the bullet for a concentric fit in the barrel. Bore riding bullets do not fit this curve well and shoot reasonably at velocities less than 1800 fps in the match grade range. Non bore riding bullets contain many types and shouldn't be quantified unless described fully.

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frnkeore posted this 02 April 2017

Joe,

You quote my question but you missed the important part of it. If you go back and re-read it, it says 200 yards, that was the point of the question.

"Accuracy is not affected, at least in the 1-1.5 inch group area, by the shooter or his technique, the bench equipment, the reloading equipment or technique, the powder-given that the powder works with jacketed, the brass or the primers."

I think you'll get opposition to match shooters on that statement or anyone that experiments with devoloping loads.

Two points come to mind (there are many others), did you test shooting off of the barrel against shooting off the forearm and did you do primer tests with your loads? There are 4 basic primers, SP, SR, SP mag and SR mag, plus many brands of them.

You also don't qualify a shooters experience level. I know many people that can't shoot well off the bench with a UnR.

And last, you didn't answer my quest about how many ASSRA matches are marke “Single Entry Only". I ask only because I don't want people mislead about ASSRA matches. That's important to me because it's where I stated and my roots in this sport.

Frank

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GP Idaho posted this 02 April 2017

MarkinE; Two rifles in my accumulation can be counted on to shoot sub-moa. Both are 26” barreled Rem. 700s, one in 25-06 the other 223. The 25-06 was the last rifle that I own that I bought a mould for because of the case size to bullet ratio and “Everybody knows” this is a problem with cast bullets and well, it just shot 100gr Sierra flat bases so well. At last  , I chose a NOE mould (258-120-fn) This is a design by Frank (frnkeore) that Al at NOE modified the lube grooves on and it fits my 25-06 like it was made for my rifle. I believe it would be well worth a try in your 25. Gp

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joeb33050 posted this 02 April 2017

I would like to ask those that shoot in the target rifle classes (HVY, UNR & UNP) of CBA matches, what do you think is the thing that effects the accuracy, at the target the most, at 200 yards? And the same question of those that shoot in the lower velocity classes like Production, Hunter and Milsurp. Frank
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I'm in the middle of an experiment about “what things affect accuracy and how much". I'm shooting cast and (fewer) jacketed bullets with the same charges. I have 3 barrels , 22-250, for the Striker pistol, SS and Blue with 12” twist, 16 1/2” with 9” twist. The 16 1/2” and BLUE will reliably shoot 225646M into 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages < 1.5". The SS barrel is close.
All barrels will shoot jacketed bullets averaging < 1", same everything including powder charge, 7.5 in 9 twist, 8.5 in 12 twist; Titegroup.
From this, I infer the following:
Accuracy is affected by the bullet, primarily.
Accuracy is not affected, at least in the 1-1.5 inch group area, by the shooter or his technique, the bench equipment, the reloading equipment or technique, the powder-given that the powder works with jacketed, the brass or the primers.
Means that weighing powder charges or brass or sorting brass within a lot or measuring/adjusting concentricity or such will NOT get those cast bullets down to 1". It's the bullet.
Now, I embarked on this, my second 22cf voyage, because I could shoot ~ 1” 308 groups to the point of boredom. I suspect that the .30 cast vs jacketed would show the same as the .22, but I don't know.
joe b.
 

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MarkinEllensburg posted this 02 April 2017

Some of the best shooters do not compete. And when they die everything they knew will be forgotten; unless they wrote an article for “The Fouling Shot” if it wasn't in a match report!

Some that do compete do not document what it is that they did. My father Richard (Dick) Stripes was one such. I asked him before he lost most of his memory if he ever wrote down and documented what he did to Ruger Number 1's that made them shoot good. He said no and added it did not always work. At the end of his life he seemed from what I can discern, to have as many questions as answers.

There seems to be so many variables with cast bullets that the learning curve is quite steep. I've been casting for years, mostly pistol and also for a .30/30. I'm humbled since I started casting for my .25-06. A rifle that  is proven with jacketed bullets is so far lacking with cast @ 100 yards.

Thanks for adding to this conversation. Bullet fit, alloy choice and consistency in loading seems to be what you all are saying is the key to good results.It is probably a different discussion  but how should a bullet fit the throat? I would think that there is a difference between bore riding and non bore riding bullets and both must work some of the time.

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RicinYakima posted this 02 April 2017

Oh so do I miss them very much. Especially since I had 2 years and 10 months left on my subscription and no refunds, no communications and no magazine. They simple sucked all of us old time subscribers into sending them money and then closed the doors. Well, what can you expect from an outfit that ran out of a tavern.

Articles were good to the end, except for the ones that were made up and falsified.

 

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