Help : FR-8 .308 Win Load with A No. 9

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  • Last Post 05 October 2009
303PV posted this 06 August 2008

I would like to use Accurate No.9 in .308 Win with a 150 grains GC Saeco bullet #316 or with a Lyman 311299 GC 200 grain: I have slugged the barrel of the FR-8 and it is .308.

I would like to get  some recommendations for loads please.

Thanks.

PV 

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seabreeze133 posted this 05 October 2009

seabreeze133 wrote: Dollar BillU might gor to Beartooth Bullets and look up 30 cal bullets. Tried some of his 290 gr .432 in a 444 marlin w/outstanding results.DBDollar Bill wrote: seabreeze, is that the NEI #48 mould? Looks like the one, but mine come out about 150 gr from wheelweights.

 

Sorry about the delay getting back to u but work is wearing me out. But then there are a lot of folks that are unemployed, so no complaints.

 

Don

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seabreeze133 posted this 02 October 2009

Dollar Bill wrote: seabreeze, is that the NEI #48 mould? Looks like the one, but mine come out about 150 gr from wheelweights.

 

Sorry about the delay getting back to u but work is wearing me out. But then there are a lot of folks that are unemployed, so no complaints.

 

Don

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JetMech posted this 01 October 2009

seabreeze, is that the NEI #48 mould?

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seabreeze133 posted this 29 September 2009

I have had excellent results w/cast in my M14s chambered in 7.62 NATO and will tryit in my FR8. M14 bbl is 1:12 twist.

 

R-P case, 150 gr NEI bullet sized 309, 29.5 gr H335, WLR primers. Cycles the action and no leading. 8 shots in 3/4 ” at 50 yds from the magazine. tried 29 and 30 gr also w/reasonable accuracy. The bullet looks like a 31141....shrunk.

Have not chronographed the load but suspect 1850 to 1900 fps.

 

Don.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 20 August 2009

I unloaded

a couple of vintage 8 mm mauser rounds.Both were

Marked 44 and Ss.One with a brass case,the other lacquered steel

 Bothy bullets are Spitzer boattails yellow jackets,steel(rust) inside,very long bullets,with little lead,I think.

Weight of one  was 160 grains and the other ,which had a black paint belt is around 172 gr.

They indeed used many types of  different 8mm ammo,and I think  most of it was used in machine guns.

 

 

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303PV posted this 20 August 2009

I sent the throat slug to Veral Smith. The mold is a work of art! I had 4 .30 cal molds.I sold them  because none of bullets fitted the oversize throat. I can really recommend the LBT molds.

PV

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JetMech posted this 20 August 2009

Looking good! Did you slug the throat and have Veral make a mold or did you one get of his molds off the shelf?

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303PV posted this 20 August 2009

The best result until now is with the 170 grains LBT , Hornady GC. Sized to .311 with a Lee die. Lee liquid Alox. A0 is a flake powder produced by Nobelsport. The burning rate is comparable to A #7, HS7,800X & N350 according to the nobelsport list.

Standard deviation (x) = 10 mm, Sy = 11 mm , The mean radius is 13 mm for the 15 shot group. Distance was 50 m.

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303PV posted this 16 August 2009

Dear Mr. Colfi,

I don't mind at all that you completely disagree with me about the pressure of 8x57 IS cartridges. But let's try to be factual.

Firstly you mention 40000 psi and then 35000 psi. Secondly you mention that the standard cartridge had a 196 grain bullet,. The s.S bullet was indeed 198 grains, but also a lot of cartridges had still the S bullet of 154 grains. How I know that? I lived for about 10 years in the area where Operation Market Garden took place in 1944. There was still a lot  ammo lying around.  There were all kinds of bullets, s.S ,S, S m.E beobachtung,  tracer etc.  From your closing remarks I understand that you don't want to refer to publications because you know you are right. But allow me to just add the following link. http://www.cruffler.com/Features/JUL-01/trivia-July01.html>http://www.cruffler.com/Features/JUL-01/trivia-July01.html

I can easily be convinced that I am wrong If you provide me with references for your statements.

Dear Mr. Dollarbill ,

Thanks for your comments.The reason that I wonder if Cetme barrels were used is that they look so much alike.The FR8 was used by the Guardia Civil a police organisation ,albeit with paramilitary aspects. Therefore I wondered why you can shoot rifle grenades with an FR8. Tear gas maybe?  The Cetme barrels are also fluted.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 I will do some further load development using the suggestions made in this thread and let you know (even when unsuccesful!)

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colfi posted this 15 August 2009

I hate to totally disagree with you here on the pressures of the 8mm Mauser cartridge, however, I do.

Any cartridge can be loaded to any pressure if your dumb enough to do so. My point was, and still is, that the original military load for the 8x57 Mauser was (1888 on)for the .318 bore, a 215 grain projectile at 32000 PSI, in 1905 this load changed to a 196 grain projectile at 34000 PSI in a 323 bore, some 170 and 150 grain loads were issued to facilitate carbines in an effort to reduce recoil but were discontinued. The earlier rifles (pre 1905) were free bored to accommodate the new round and are stamped with an 'S' to designate the Spitzer projectile. Enough of the 8mm, all of the above can be found on line or in any decent reloading or cartridge book.

As to the 7.62 FR7/8 or Cetme made conversions, They have a relieved chamber in line with the semi and full auto military issue rifles of the day, H&K as well as the Cetme s/a's. Thus the FR7/8's were chambered the same, hence the comment that this will often split cartridge cases, especially UK, USA and Australian made cases, these have a closer manufacturers tolerance when compared to the Spanish and eastern European countries manufactured rounds.

We can bounce what magazines and past tests say around all day all day. But, the bottom line, from the original German Defence department's own annuls is that the standard post 1905, 8mm Mauser round generally had a 196 grain projectile with a 34000 PSI rated pressure and was the “standard' military issue for that caliber. And the Cetme (factory) 7.62 chambers were all relieved with some free-bore,to (in bolt rifles) reduce pressure and aid extraction, and in Semi and full auto to aid extraction in adverse conditions, heat, dirt etc. How do I know. I was an armourer responsible for proof and field testing ammunition and cartridges from countries around the world as training aides for the Australian Army for 35 years. please feel free to add your next (erroneous????) comments.

have a good day y'all

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JetMech posted this 15 August 2009

I couldn't tell you for sure, but I would think not, based on the reasoning that the designer would have made that section just large enough to withstand the pressure developed in the chamber (with  a safety factor). A threaded barrel has to withstand the same pressure based on the minor diameter of the threaded section. But that's just speculation on my part, as I'm not a gunsmith and don't have any barrels around to check.

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303PV posted this 15 August 2009

Thanks. Is the Cetme barrel diameter big enough for threading for a mauser action?

 

 

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JetMech posted this 15 August 2009

303PV wrote: The barrel of the FR-8 looks very much like a CETME barrel, Was a CETME barrel used for the FR-8? No. CETME barrels are pressed into the action and retained by a pin. FR8s are standard threaded large ring mausers.

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303PV posted this 15 August 2009

Hi ,

I found some pressure data in an NRA publication.(Mauser Rifles; American Rifleman reprint 1980). It says that in 1903 a load with an 154 grain S bullet gave a velocity of 2870 fps , chamber pressure 49805 psi. This was the 8x57 IS. The 8x57 I : 226 grain, 2100 fps, 45536 psi.

The 8x57 IS  was and is not low pressure cartridge. Current CIP max pressure is 56565 psi. SAAMI list the cartridge max pressure as 35000 psi, but that is because they are afraid that someone will fire an .323” bullet through a .318” barrel.

 I don't  like to shoot the K98k. But that is because the sights are quite low on the rifle. This causes a very unnatural hold for me on the rifle. Felt recoil is much worse than with an FR-8.

I have  shot the Israeli K98 rebarreled to .308 and the Columbian FN produced Mauser in .30-06.The caliber does not matter it is the stock in combination with the sights that makes the reccoil unpleasant. (at least for me).

I have not yet found a load with the LBT bullet that is as good as the result obtained with the RFI 2A1 (Indian SMLE  308 W ) . I Think that has a lot to do with the front sight. I had changed it to a post type, but I changed back to the original and that is a cone shape.  Let's see ...

The barrel of the FR-8 looks very much like a CETME barrel, Was a CETME barrel used for the FR-8?

PV

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colfi posted this 13 August 2009

:dude:

Two things here, the original WW2 8mm Mauser load IS a fairly low pressure load, around 40000 PSI, well below '98 action strength, The military loads kick because most were mostly loaded with a 198 gr proji. The FR7/8 were rifled with a 1 in 12 twist, hence they shoot well with light bullets and cast heavy ones. All FR7/8's have relieved chambers and can split cases at times, just make sure you use a space filler when using light powder charges with the lead bullets. For fun, you may want to try some 32 ACP 100 grain jackets in it at high speed, they shoot small groups without pressure signs in my FR8.

 

 

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seabreeze133 posted this 17 July 2009

WyrTwister wrote: 303PV wrote: Thank you for pointing that out. I have read about the difference between 7,62x51 Nato and .308 Win. some time ago.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/308vs762nato/index.asp>http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/308vs762nato/index.asp

I use a Lee collet die and the ballistic program Quickload calculation shows that the pressure is +/- 25000 psi with the Lyman 200gr and a load of 18.0 grains A No.9

I have seen advice about not using reduced loads with ball powders.But the experience of linoww shows that ball powders can be used .

Thanks.

PV  I have a Century Arms M14 w/Fed Ord receiver w/all Chicom parts, unitized and NM sights. My first CB load was 29.5 gr H335, R-P brass, WLR primers and a 150 gr NEI mold bullet sized .309. 10 shots at 50 yds w/2 called flyers and the 8 good ones were in .750 x .880. Light enough crimp to feed from the magazine. Worked the action nicely.I tried 0.5 gr higher and lower, but the 29.5 gr load was best. Got started on this w/data from Bruce and am pleased.

 Next I will slug the bore and size as appropriate, and go to 100 yds. I tried 311041 GC w/no luck.I also have an excellent FR-8 and will try CB in it. Same load.  CheersDB I have been experimenting a little with cast bullets in .30-30 .

     You all have me interested , now , about cast bullets for military rifles .  I have a FAL , Garands ( including a 7.62 NATO one ) and a M1A .

     So , I am asking for advice for 7.62 NATO for gas guns ?

     The lever guns seem to like big ( .310” to .312” ) cast bullets .  How about the gas guns ?  Or do they do better arounf .308” - .309"  ?

God bless Wyr

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cast367 posted this 18 March 2009

Wyr

I have experience with bolt actions, not semi auto like Fal and Garand.But you can try the loads in a semi auto. I use the 180 grs rcbs with gascheck , sized .309 20 grs Acc5744 , 22 grs Acc 5744 150 Gc Lee. It is in an semi auto maby not enough for repeating.

For 30-06 is 25 grs Vito Vu and 180 rcbs GC an exelent load in my Parker Hale.The Lyman cast handbook gives a lot of loads .

Leo367

 

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cast367 posted this 18 March 2009

Wyr

I have experience with bolt actions, not semi auto like Fal and Garand.But you can try the loads in a semi auto. I use the 180 grs rcbs with gascheck , sized .309 20 grs Acc5744 , 22 grs Acc 5744 150 Gc Lee. It is in an semi auto maby not enough for repeating.

For 30-06 is 25 grs Vito Vu and 180 rcbs GC an exelent load in my Parker Hale.The Lyman cast handbook gives a lot of loads .

Leo367

 

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WyrTwister posted this 17 March 2009

303PV wrote: Thank you for pointing that out. I have read about the difference between 7,62x51 Nato and .308 Win. some time ago.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/308vs762nato/index.asp>http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/308vs762nato/index.asp

I use a Lee collet die and the ballistic program Quickload calculation shows that the pressure is +/- 25000 psi with the Lyman 200gr and a load of 18.0 grains A No.9

I have seen advice about not using reduced loads with ball powders.But the experience of linoww shows that ball powders can be used .

Thanks.

PV 

     I have been experimenting a little with cast bullets in .30-30 .

     You all have me interested , now , about cast bullets for military rifles .  I have a FAL , Garands ( including a 7.62 NATO one ) and a M1A .

     So , I am asking for advice for 7.62 NATO for gas guns ?

     The lever guns seem to like big ( .310” to .312” ) cast bullets .  How about the gas guns ?  Or do they do better arounf .308” - .309"  ?

God bless Wyr

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Gee Wizz01 posted this 18 December 2008

Years ago I tried using the 314299 with 2400 and Rx7, but I never achieved any satisfactory groups and I just gave up on it with heavy bullets.  Let me know how your groups work out.

G

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