Lee Tumble Lube Failure?

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  • Last Post 16 December 2010
kokojoe posted this 22 June 2009

Hi All,

I need some feedback on this.

I've used the Lee TL356-124-2R molds for my 9MM rounds.  I've done everything I could think of and tried almost every suggestion, but still get signficant barrel leading on about 1/3 of the muzzle end.  One of the fine members here sent me some conventionally-lubed cast bullets at about 12.5 BHN and, after 100 rounds, I had no perceptable leading.  It was like a miracle!!  So, I've done alot - here's a list:

<>Always tumble lubed.  Started with strait - then cut 20% +/- with mineral spirits.  Now back to strait.  Lubed before sizing only - and before and after.<>Used Lee sizers at .357 & .358.  Also used unsized considerably.<>Used Lee Factory Crimp Die and without.<>Varied loads from starting loads to near maximum.<>Varied COL from minimum to maximum. <>Tried Win 231 & WSF.<>Used BHN of 14 on up to 18+.<>Always started with a clean, fresh barrel.<>Usually shoot 50 to 150 rounds.<>End up cleaning with the brush & copper scrubber trick I read about - it's the only way to make this a manageable task after each session.<>I water quench.<>I use the Lee tester for BHN.  My reading was cooberated with another member. My alloy is WW and plumbing pipe lead to drop the BHN.  To insure I had tin I even had some sticks of body lead (I'm guessing it was 30/70 or something like that) that I'd add in - still got the leading.

Also, FYI, my tumble lubed bullets for my 45 ACP also are leading.

So, I guess my question is - is this just me?? or are there others who have not been able to not have this leading issue?

I am going to take one more stab at it - I'm guessing someone would suggest an even lower BHN and air cooled only.  So, I'm going to mix up a batch with a target of 12.5 BHN (same as friend's conventionally lubed miracle bullets) - with the tin added to be sure - then air cool them - tumble lube them and load them unsized.  But, in the mean time - any feed back would be appreciated.

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noylj posted this 16 December 2010

I would suggest a light coat of warm LLA applied to some warm (not HOT) bullets, dry overnight, then apply a second light coat. My introduction to tumble lubing was after a move I found about 500 as-cast Lee 358-105-SWC bullets I had cast several years ago. I ordered some LLA and Rooster Jacket to try. I tumble lubed about 100 bullets in each and let dry over night. I had used too much LLA as they were a warm-brown color and were slightly tacky (I don't mind tacky). The Rooster Jacket bullets were clear and non-tacky. Went to the range. Both lubes kept leading to a minimum in both 9x19 and .38Super. However, the LLA loads had group sizes about 50% smaller than the Rooster Jacket loads. Now, years later, I am thinking about applying my normal very thin coat of LLA, drying over night, and them applying a coat of Rooster Jacket. Using 0.357+ bullets and just a light coat of LLA, I have almost no leading in my barrels after 500 rounds. However, I have a Browning HP that has a barrel of 0.3595 and it doesn't shoot lead bullets well because I don't have a source for 0.360+ bullets. It doesn't lead, though, so the LLA is working for it also--it just can't shoot an undersized lead bullet.

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CB posted this 03 October 2010

Seems like everyone has tried to cover all avenues, but you might give this a try.I use alox almost exclusively , but I make a mix of it . I use 45% alox 45% Johnsons paste wax 10% Mineral spirits. Melt the wax and add the alox and mineral spirits , stir good and put in squirt bottles. Warm it up good before use and shake to ensure good mix. Have found straight alox is too thick and the mix coats better and dries in about 2 hours. Works for me but your millage may vary

beekeeper

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kidwalli posted this 21 September 2010

After throwing several pounds of lead downrange and meeting with leading and horrible inaccuracy problems I walked away from it for a while. Then I started all over again. The 2 smartest things I did were 1. I re-read Cast Bullets For Beginner & Expert” by Joe Brennan and 2."Unique Lives up to Its Name” by C.E.Harris as published in “Cast Bullets Supplement No.1” from the NRA. From this I concluded a few things: Soft is good, tight is good and lower velocity is REALLY GOOD. I don't size bullets any more and use Lee Liquid Alox as lube. I merely cast some bullets and as soon as they can be comfortably handled I throw them in a tin can and roll them around with some Alox. I leave them to dry over night and load. No gas checks either. I don't know about where you live but here gas checks are $70 a thousand plus tax. I am now getting most pleasing accuracy out of my Model 94 Angle Eject in 307. Not a tack driver but hitting a deer's vitals is a dead cert now. IMR SR 4759 powder. Magic. Fun. Happy. Thanks Mr. Harris and Mr.Brennan.

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LouisianaMan posted this 31 July 2009

kokojoe, I read your detailed reports with great interest last night! I've been fretting over troubles with several bullets & LLA that are leading, and perhaps your experience will show me the way. I'm trying to secure some lead to alloy with my WW to see if the softer alloy will fix my problems. Re. sizing, doesn't the Lee FCD size the bullet if you use it for crimping?

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kokojoe posted this 06 July 2009

Good news update.

Ok, I switched over to some .38 Specials because I was out. So, I got a batch of WW/Plumbing lead to under 10 BHN and used the LLA. After 40 rounds at 3.6 WIN 231 out of my 6” GP 100 - I had a pretty clean barrel. Some powder residue but no signs of leading. The last batch I had were running 14+ BHN and there was some leading to contend with. Two other things were different as well. One is that I did not size these TL358-158-SWC Lee bullets. They are as cast. Also, I switched to the Lee 4 die pistol set primarily to get the Factory Crimp Die.

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canalupo posted this 01 July 2009

kokojoe

I am not completely sure but is the S&W you are loading for prone to the Glock/springfield/S&W bulge? The leading may be caused by something other than powder or bullets. It is my understanding that when the bulge on a reload hits the solid side of the chamber it could force the bullet out of alignment with throat and disturb taper crimp on some loads. The “bounce” down the barrel may cause the leading and not the lube.

At least it may be worth checking.

Bob D 

 

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kokojoe posted this 01 July 2009

TODAY'S UPDATE:

To start with, I want to thank Duane for all his help.  He has contributed a great deal to this thread and provided me with bullets, etc. to get this testing done.

Well, today's tests were somewhat inconclusive.  One of the problems is that gauging lead fouling is somewhat subjective and I have to do it in the field between cleanings and then kind of remember what barrel looked like relative to the other to write it down.

One thing that is stable and I can say with certainty: the 120 grain TC bullets sized to .356 and lubed by Duane with a beeswax lube (?) pretty much have no detectable leading.  This is with 4.3 WSF.

I was shooting 30-50 rounds and inspecting the barrel.  But, that was slow and very time and materials consuming.  So, I'm trying to look at this with 20 rounds.  That was hard - I don't think the fouling built up to distinguish it much from load to load. So, I'm going to go with 32 rounds in the future.

Anyhow, here are my field procedures.  Each load it labeled on a 3 x 5 card in a baggie with the 20 rounds or so.  First, I shot Duane's rounds as a base.  I then take wet patches through the barrel six times; then a dry patch 4 times and inspect the barrel.  This gets the powder and loose crud out.  Then I try to rank barrel to barrel as they are relative to each other.  Then, any remaining leading, I use a dry brass brush 20-30 times back & forth until I knock the remaining lead out.  Then I dry patch through to get the crud out and wet patch a couple times and then dry patches.  Then I'm ready for another batch.

So far, my testing has included (1)  LLA strait with one application; (2) LLA very heavy strait on as a second coat to where, instead of “light honey” it looks like heavy shellac; (3) 50% thinned with mineral spirits and applied in two light coats.  This was tried on both my TL bullets and Duane's unlubed bullets.  And, I used WSF powder in charges of 4.3, 4.5, and the maximum at 4.7.  Neither of my guns work consistenly at the starting load of 4.0 - so that was ruled out.  I also cast bullets at about 12.5 BHN and 16+ BHN.

And, to review, my current leading problem is mostly at the muzzle end - indicating the bullet running out of lube. 

So, Duane's lubed & sized bullet worked fine.  I used LLA on his unlubed bullets and get moderate leading with various applications and loads.

My TL bullets with LLA consistenly leaded with a mix of variables.  The only thing that seemed to help somewhat was the TL bullet with VERY HEAVY application of LLA and shot at the moderate 4.3 WSF.  With my 20 round experiment, it was not as good as Duane's but definately seemed better than any others.

There was some thought and comments that the softer bullets may improve things as they would seal the bore better.  In this case, I did not see that happen - which suprised me.  I do still think, however, that my 16+ BHN has need unnecessarily strong - I'm going to target future casts in the 12-14 range.  In these tests, however, it actually seemed that the higher charges may have added to the leading.

At this point, I have some of my TL bullets loaded that Duane ran through his lube sizer - so that's really my last real test at this point.  We'll see if some other lube method on the TL bullets makes a difference.

Duane indicates, and I'm kind of getting the feeling that he's right on this, that my barrel may be getting conditioned or something and that may make things better also.  So, I'll report back after I shoot those  TL bullets with LLA and conventional lube on them.  In the meantime, I'll going to load a batch of Duane's bullets and just shoot for awhile.

Maybe I should invent some camera attachement (not that I'm capable!)  so that we could post photos of the barrels - it would probably be alot easier for you to see what was going on with it.  Also, it would be nice if there was some more objective way to identify the leading issue.

So, for some reason, the LLA just does not seem to be working for me at this point.  Maybe with some more barrel conditioning and revisiting it in the future this will change.

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hunterspistol posted this 28 June 2009

     That is interesting, I've just been running wheelweight. The BHN is only about 9 at most. I haven't really hit it with any linotype to see what happens next.  The statement that BHN is not the criterion for compressive strength brings me back to a Fouling Shot article on how rifling etched the cast bullet when accelerated beyond the point of accuracy. Seems at a certain point the rifling is cutting the side of the bullet from pressure.  I've just begun to experiment on the 9mm, and I haven't tried to make it real accurate to 100 meters, just 50, and then it's only mediocre, at the present stage.

The article I'm referring to is from Journal #197(197-9)  Technical Ramblings:Base Upset by Ken Mollohan, Cincinnati, Ohio.  Although about base upset and arburation are the main focus, he took this to a higher velocity conclusion and recovered the bullets to exactly examine the effects. The engraving of the rifling began to etch one side of the bullet opposite of the side rotating it, as powder loads increased, so did the engraving and leading.  Most of the loads showed no sign of leading until increased to exaggerate effect. The first sign of leading was a flash ring at the muzzle, then more, due to the engraving effect.  You'd have to read this wonderful article.

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kokojoe posted this 28 June 2009

Dollar Bill wrote: I'm not a metalurgist, but I believe the ultimate compressive strength is not based just on hardness, but on the alloy also. You can obtain a BHN of, say 15, with several different alloys and/or method of hardening, or even the rate of cooling. Interesting point on that.  Thanks.  I've not encountered that possibility in my reading.  The Lee book is silent on that and seems to imply that BHN is the deciding factor in the strength.  I can see how Recluse said he finally tossed it all out the window!!

I can see how this stuff is all important to know and understand but I am starting to see that there is no substitute for actual experience and trial and error.  What it does seem to provide, however, is a framework from which to experiment and communicate and, perhaps, to understand how others' ideas and experiences may or may not apply.

I shot another 32 rounds of Duane's 12.5 BHN 120 grain TC rounds with his lube and had another barrel as clean as could be.

I'm going to load some rounds that I've put an extra heavy dose of Lee tumble lube on and see if that makes a difference.

When I did get leading from some of my older loads, I managed to brush the barrel onto some white paper just to make sure it was lead and not lube fouling the barrel.  There were enough silver specs & slivers to make me pretty sure that what I'm seeing is lead fouling.

Also, I cast some very soft TL bullets and put heavy tumble lube on them to try.

I will also bump up some rounds to 4.5WSF and 4.7WSF to see if that affects the older 16 BHN TL castings that I have.

Recluse' comments are interesting about cutting the tumble lube so much.  I think I've got it too light and not enough and that's part of my leading near muzzle end - that I run out of lube.  Could too much lube also cause this symptom?

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Recluse posted this 27 June 2009

kokojoe wrote:Recluse,that gives me a couple other things to test. What powder are you using when you push them and don't get the leading? Does that seem to matter?

I'll try your TL mixture. Did that make a difference over the strait Lee product?

Before I realized the leading was a problem, I was just concentrating on the accuracy of the loads. With the WIN 231 for me, it seemed I had to push right at Max published load to get the best performance. However, that was when I may have been cast too strong a bullet.

So, I, too, will continue on that journey.

Thanks

I use a lot of AA#5 for my 9mm loads. When loaded jacketed, it gives me accuracy that far surpasses even the old factory ammo the agency used to issue (and of which, I have scores of boxes of in my ammo cabinets).

Used to be leary of loading 9mm lead very hot, but like you, I was diligently looking at the pressures and statistics and projections and “what should happen when you do 'x' versus 'y' . . . and I finally just tossed all that out the window.

Started loading my 9mm cast with softer boolits and harder charges, and overnight everything began improving.

I know a guy who is retired SAS and an absolute afficiendo of the Browning FN Hi-Power. He is an ardent handloader and also dabbles in casting. He told me that the 9mm isn't made to fly slow. Needs a good, high velocity to achieve consistent accuracy.

What I look for is the ideal combination to achieve ideal obturation. If I'm going to load midrange or lower velocity 9mm, then I definitely have to cast softer boolits so that obturation occurs. Likewise, with this “super alloy” I'm experimenting with, I have to push it like the dickens to get proper obturation.

On those occasions in which I've found the magic, I've gotten good accuracy and a clean bore. When I don't find the mojo, I end up in situations similar to yours.

Another thing I learned very early on in reloading is what might've worked for Mr. Lee doesn't always work for Mr. Recluse--even if we're shooting the same gun with the same charge. Same goes for what works for Mr. Hornady or Mr. Nosler or Mr. Lyman or Mr. Speer doesn't always work for me.

The books are a safe guide and appropriate place to begin the load journey. I learned a long time ago to never consider them as the final destination.

As far as my LLA/JPW mix, again, I like the LLA but I feel as it is and as described in how to use by Mr. Lee, it's too heavy of a coat.

That's why early on, I cut it by at least 50% with mineral spirits. Then I began cutting it with Johnsons Paste Wax, and lubing/sizing/lubing/loading, and that's when things REALLY picked up for the better and I've never looked back.

I improved accuracy and consistency, eliminated virtually all leading, and kept my bore very clean.

That's one of my Holy Trifectas. :)

:coffee:

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JetMech posted this 26 June 2009

I'm not a metalurgist, but I believe the ultimate compressive strength is not based just on hardness, but on the alloy also. You can obtain a BHN of, say 15, with several different alloys and/or method of hardening, or even the rate of cooling.

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kokojoe posted this 26 June 2009

I am starting to think it is an alloy hardness problem as well - although I still think that and the lube may both have some factor in this. And, of course, I have not ruled out my own casting techniques as possible also. It does puzzle me because of my reading in the Lee Book. The Hogdon data for a 124 grain lead bullet has pressure at 22,200 PSI for 4.0 WSF and 27,300 PSI @ 4.7 WSF. I'm pretty much in the middle. Lee's book on page 134 indicates that for 17.2 BHN the Max PSI should be 22,002. This is based on his theory that this is about 10% below the “ultimate compressive strength” of the material and allows the bullet to deform and seal without ovedoing it. However, maybe his research along these lines are based more on rifle loads? In any case, the 12.5 BHN Duane sent me would indicate a max pressure of 16,000 PSI on the same chart. I would be substantially over that max yet with his lube I had no leading issues and they shot well.

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Ed Harris posted this 26 June 2009

I agree with Dolar Bill. Your alloy is too hard.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JetMech posted this 26 June 2009

I think the key is your alloy hardness. When I used to cast everything in Lyman #2, I had some type of leading problems in my 357, 45 and 41. Once I cut it with straight lead so the alloy was around 10-12BHN, problems went away.

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kokojoe posted this 26 June 2009

Recluse wrote: Of everything I cast and load for, 9mm has always been the most challenging. So much so, that I continuously think seriously about just buying jacketed round nose bullets in massive bulk to load. I have an outstanding load for j-bullets.

But cast? Plenty of challenges.

I have that Lee TL124RN boolit mould as well. And, I'm a huge fan of tumble-lubing--but with the mix and technique I've developed for my loads. Nothing earth-shattering or proprietary about it:

45%LLA/45%JPW/10%Odorless Mineral Spirits. Tumble lube cast boolits very lightly, let dry overnight. Run through appropriate Lee push-through sizer, then tumble-lube sized boolits lightly again, let dry, put up (or load). I like to lube and size my boolits within 24 - 72 hours of having cast them.

I have a couple of other 9mm boolit moulds as well, and all perform about the same.

What I've found is that if I increase BHN in the 9mm, I absolutely better increase load/pressure or I'm going to get flyers and leading. It's that simple. I'm shooting out of Berettas, Taurus, Sig and an FN Hi-Power. Doesn't matter which gun--if my boolits are too hard and my charge too weak, my accuracy is non-existent and my leading is more than evident.

I water drop my WW TL124RN boolits. BHN is around 11/12. But I load them above midrange. This gives me almost acceptable accuracy, but zero leading. Harder I push them, the better my accuracy gets--especially in the Hi-Power.

Presently, I'm trying something somewhat different. I'm making some “super-alloy” with a high degree of linotype and antimony in it, sufficent tin for complete and total fillout, and then will probably heat-treat them, then lube/size/lube/load.

But the load is going to be what I do my upper/max velocity jacketed loads with. Want to see if I can duplicate the accuracy and performance I get with the FMJ bullets with very hard cast boolits.

Not sure what I'll actually accomplish, but I'm at the point now in my shooting/reloading/casting life that I enjoy the journey as much--if not MORE--than I do the destination.

Your problem is a mystery, though. Again, for me and my 9mm pistols, the harder the lead, the harder I need to push it out of the barrel.

Maybe the LLA is your problem, but it's never been a problem for me in any handgun caliber, ever.

:coffee: Recluse,that gives me a couple other things to test.  What powder are you using when you push them and don't get the leading?  Does that seem to matter?

I'll try your TL mixture.  Did that make a difference over the strait Lee product?

Before I realized the leading was a problem, I was just concentrating on the accuracy of the loads.  With the WIN 231 for me, it seemed I had to push right at Max published load to get the best performance. However, that was when I may have been cast too strong a bullet.

So, I, too, will continue on that journey.

Thanks

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Recluse posted this 26 June 2009

Of everything I cast and load for, 9mm has always been the most challenging. So much so, that I continuously think seriously about just buying jacketed round nose bullets in massive bulk to load. I have an outstanding load for j-bullets.

But cast? Plenty of challenges.

I have that Lee TL124RN boolit mould as well. And, I'm a huge fan of tumble-lubing--but with the mix and technique I've developed for my loads. Nothing earth-shattering or proprietary about it:

45%LLA/45%JPW/10%Odorless Mineral Spirits. Tumble lube cast boolits very lightly, let dry overnight. Run through appropriate Lee push-through sizer, then tumble-lube sized boolits lightly again, let dry, put up (or load). I like to lube and size my boolits within 24 - 72 hours of having cast them.

I have a couple of other 9mm boolit moulds as well, and all perform about the same.

What I've found is that if I increase BHN in the 9mm, I absolutely better increase load/pressure or I'm going to get flyers and leading. It's that simple. I'm shooting out of Berettas, Taurus, Sig and an FN Hi-Power. Doesn't matter which gun--if my boolits are too hard and my charge too weak, my accuracy is non-existent and my leading is more than evident.

I water drop my WW TL124RN boolits. BHN is around 11/12. But I load them above midrange. This gives me almost acceptable accuracy, but zero leading. Harder I push them, the better my accuracy gets--especially in the Hi-Power.

Presently, I'm trying something somewhat different. I'm making some “super-alloy” with a high degree of linotype and antimony in it, sufficent tin for complete and total fillout, and then will probably heat-treat them, then lube/size/lube/load.

But the load is going to be what I do my upper/max velocity jacketed loads with. Want to see if I can duplicate the accuracy and performance I get with the FMJ bullets with very hard cast boolits.

Not sure what I'll actually accomplish, but I'm at the point now in my shooting/reloading/casting life that I enjoy the journey as much--if not MORE--than I do the destination.

Your problem is a mystery, though. Again, for me and my 9mm pistols, the harder the lead, the harder I need to push it out of the barrel.

Maybe the LLA is your problem, but it's never been a problem for me in any handgun caliber, ever.

:coffee:

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kokojoe posted this 25 June 2009

giorgio de galleani wrote: I believe that leading in the front third of the barrel is too much pressure and or velocity.more than a lube problem in a pistol.

Have you clocked your loads with a chronograph?

Have you tried a much milder load? Have you tried Bullseye  or 231W?

Incidentally,what is your pistol? and what about rifling twist.

I have never had loading in decent loads with liquid alox and Xlox,your story grieves me,

Have you tried youe 9 mm bullets ,unsized in a good 38 sp revolver?

While the 9luger is a difficult load ,it is usually impossible to lead a normal 38sp load.

Are you sure you are not making some other big mistake in the loading operation.?

Your misterious leading is a interesting problem.    The leading is near the muzzle 1/3 end.

I've tried all loads even .1 below starting loads.  Those loads give me fits in the operation and still result in leading - but less. 

I used both a SW Model 669 and and SW 9VE.  I test the leading issue between them and it seems to affect both similarly.

I've used WIN 231 as well.  Suggestions on this forum were that WSF helped someone else stop leading - so I've been working with that.  But either one seems to end up the same.

WIN 115 grain white box ammo is 1,132 average from my 669.  Remington 115 HP is 1,125.  4.0 WSF is 907-936; 4.1 WSF is 940-950; 4.2 WSF is in the 950's; 4.3 WSF is right at about 1,000.  Have not chronoed others yet or the WIN 231.

I don't think I'm missing anything major.  I've read dozens of books, hundreds of postings, etc. etc.  I am, however, new to this - started just a few months ago.

I have shot the bullets out of a Ruger GP 100 with a 6” barrel.  At the time, I was not focusing on the leading issue.  I was just happy the darned things went out the end of the barrel!!  I'll have to report back on that.  I do think it resulted in some leading, but far less than the 9mm.

Just a reminder from my earlier posts, the bullets with conventional lube did not result in leading with the 4.3 WSF load.  I'm going to load those again just to be sure I did not miss anything or was not too optimistic when I was cleaning and inspecting!!

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RogerWatsonfromIdaho posted this 25 June 2009

kokojoe,

For the start of cleaning the bore, I use a tight fitting patch on a push tip with my powder cleaning solvent (WD-40).  I push the patch thru the bore one time and look at the patch for lead.  This tells me if there is leading in the bore.  Then I clean the bore of powder fouling as you do.  I also shine a light down the bore and look for leading.  Mine is usually in the throat.  The chore boy around a brass brush will remove it.

I find your problem very interesting as I am also getting leading on my 9mm Luger with everything I try.  I do not use Lee tumble lub.  I am able to get acceptable leading which is the batches clean out the leading without using the chore boy.  I had no problem getting the .45 acp to shoot without any leading on the cleaning patch.  I will try softer bullets in the 9mm.

Roger

 

 

 

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giorgio de galleani posted this 25 June 2009

I believe that leading in the front third of the barrel is too much pressure and or velocity.more than a lube problem in a pistol.

Have you clocked your loads with a chronograph?

Have you tried a much milder load? Have you tried Bullseye  or 231W?

Incidentally,what is your pistol? and what about rifling twist.

I have never had loading in decent loads with liquid alox and Xlox,your story grieves me,

Have you tried youe 9 mm bullets ,unsized in a good 38 sp revolver?

While the 9luger is a difficult load ,it is usually impossible to lead a normal 38sp load.

Are you sure you are not making some other big mistake in the loading operation.?

Your misterious leading is a interesting problem. 

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kokojoe posted this 25 June 2009

TODAY'S UPDATE

Got out again today. Can't say I resolved anything but have more information for input.

Before that, just a couple things.  tturner made a good point, when the barrel is wet, the leading can not really be spotted because the cleaner is running like excess paint in the barrel.   My procedure to check for leading and fouling is this:  first, I run a wet patch through about 3 or 4 times.  Then a dry patch one or two times.  This cleans out the powder & debris.  Then I use those magnifying visor glasses to look at the barrel, carefully rolling in indirect outdoor light to get a really good look.  That's where I find the streaks of leading.  Someone proposed it might be a build up of excess Lee Liquid lube?  I suppose it could be, but don't think so.  It's pretty stubborn stuff.  I used Ed's Red heavily, then use the bronze brush wrapped in the copper kithchen scrubbers.  Then, there still may be a little left.  I try to get it all off each time to have a fair base for comparison.  I have a tiny bronze brush that I may use for one or two final spots.  But, I won't rule out a build-up and will try to be more careful to see if I can actually get a scraping or sample that I can examine to be absolutely certain that it is lead.

I used Lee tumble lube only on both my friend's TC 120 grain and my TL RN 124 grain that both test out about 12.5 BHN.  4.3 WSF.  Both fed well.  If you remember, at the starting load of 4.0, both had terrible feeding in both guns I used.  I shot 48 of the TC and 36 of the TL.  Both had moderate leading that required a good scrub to get out.  Concentrated in the last 1/4 or so of the barrel.

Then, I re-shot my standard 16+BHN tumble lubed only at the same charge.  34 rounds resulted in leading maybe 50% worse than above and moderate leading near the breech end.

I did try shooting the above with a wet bore.  With 16 rounds there still was moderate leading; although not as bad as above.

So, the original baseline of the TC with the conventional lithi-bee lube at the 4.3 WSF is superior to anything with the Lee tumble lube so far.

Now, I'm going to load some more of those and confirm this one more time.  Then I'll try the tumble lubed bullets and see if there is some way I can verify that it is leading and not a build up of lube.  Again, I'd be suprised if it was lube because Ed's Red will take the lube right off a bullet with no scrubbing effort at all.

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