Using petroleum based bore cleaners in BP barrels

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  • Last Post 24 May 2011
Tom Acheson posted this 09 October 2010

Can anyone explain why some BP cartridge shooters maintain the impression that the use of petroleum based bore cleaners/solvents in the barrel of a rifle that shoots black powder is undesirable? Jeff Bowles told me his Voodoo lube does not use any petro ingredients which is helpful.

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CB posted this 24 May 2011

Bill Barglof

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rmrix posted this 24 May 2011

Dan, If I can ask, who is the trapdoor rifleman at your club?

 

Michael Rix

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CB posted this 24 May 2011

Thanks for photos and the test Fred, its a good idea. I've done similar test for smokeless powders and bullet lubes.

One of the top shooters around for BP Trapdoor competition at our club has switched to the water base machining oil for his range shooting and cleaning. It's the best, especially since he owns a machine shop!...........DanW

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Fred_Dwyer posted this 24 May 2011

Get some “water soluble oil,” typically available as a machining lube/coolant. They have ionic rust inhibitors added. This is what's in “Moose Juice” or my version is “Moose Milk.” I have guns that haven't seen oil in 30 years, (except lock pivots.) Yeah they are “oils” but since they are water soluble a spit-patch will clean the barrel before you add BP. No need to use a degreaser.

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CB posted this 24 May 2011

Papa Smurf wrote: I shoot Pyrodex , It is not as hard to find around here. Do the same ways of cleaning apply ? I have light rust in the bore after several mounths and I do oil the bore after it dryes . Papa needs help.

I hear praises from some BP shooters using Ed's Red in the bore for storage. If you use it, use the formula containing Lanolin. I wouldn't use any vegetable oils or petroleum base oils for storage as vegetable oils will congeal and petroleum base oils seems unsuccessful to me. Animal fats are unique proteins and seem to work best concerning rust guard.

I have lately been using a product called Fluid Film containing Lanolin. It is a penetrating oil and rust protector in one. I understand John Deere tractor company uses it exclusively on equipment for overseas shipping.............DanW

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delmarskid1 posted this 23 May 2011

I clean my Browning BPCR with a three patches when I am ready to put the rifle away. The first two are wet. the last is dry. I usually put two pieces of flannel in my mouth when I go down range to pull my targets. By the time I get back they are soaked with my own custom cleaning solvent. These go down the bore followed by the dry patch. On a big day I may use three wet and two dry. I wipe the rifle inside and out with a little CLP because a friend in the reserves gave me a few bottles. I've been doing this for about fifteen years and never had any rust anywhere of any kind.

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Fred_Dwyer posted this 23 May 2011

stay away from the petrol products... at least until the shooting is done. Yep, and clean the oil out before shooting.

It dawned on me while seeing a tire commercial. They use sulfur and heat to vulcanize rubber for tires. The sulfur crosslinks allylic bonds in the hydrocarbon polymers of the native latex.  So with some oil (hydrocarbon polymer) in the bore add some black powder and light it, now you have heat and sulfur. Probably creates some half-axed almost-rubber like goo in the confusion of combustion. Automotive engines of advancing age get sludge build up from heat decomposed oil, and they get nowhere near as hot as a rifle chamber. Yeah, let's keep the oil out.

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rmrix posted this 23 May 2011

Fred Thanks! I think I learned something ........but just not sure what. I am going to have to ponder it a while.

However, I think understanding everything or not, what works as a good rule is to stay away from the petrol products... at least until the shooting is done. I use ed's red to finish up and short term store my rifles.

I do use mineral oil ( Ballistol or water soluble cutting oil - NAPA ) mixed with water for wiping between shots in Creedmoor matches. Mineral oil is a different animal.

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Fred_Dwyer posted this 23 May 2011

Let's see if I can answer all the ?s  The powder was lit at one end and it just went whoosh, the way BP likes to flash.  There was some smoky soot markings around the “oils” test spots; this is seen in the left spot where the wiping goes downward from dirty to clean...that is where the oil spot stopped. I tried to add a  picture of a second attempt to clean the left side of each burn with a soapy-water patch; that only helped clean the castor oil spot:

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rmrix posted this 23 May 2011

Fred, Could you give a little more info about the picture. Look interesting but on the face of it I am not sure what is what and what to think of it.

Questions like are the light areas steel showing through the various oils? Where there piles of BP on each white spot?  Did they all go at once of set one after the other? Are the black areas bare steel covered with fouling?

And the big question. what were the different areas like to clean and were different products used to try to clean them? And if so did the  assumption hold true that some where harder to clean?

Thanks!  Michael Rix

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Fred_Dwyer posted this 23 May 2011

Can anyone explain why some BP cartridge shooters maintain the impression that the use of petroleum based bore cleaners/solvents in the barrel of a rifle that shoots black powder is undesirable? Because it IS undesirable.

Here's a picture of piles of 24 grains of FFFg burned on a steel plate after being wiped lightly with different lubes. The last unmarked patch it a “Spit-patch.” The burnt spots were then wiped with a water damped patch. It sure looks like petroleum oils make a harder to clean fouling. 

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rmrix posted this 23 May 2011

Hey P.S., I have never checked with Hodgdon but they make and sell Pyrodex and I would think they would have a fool proof system to clean it out.  Check them out. I would be interested in what you come up with.

Other than that just cleaning twice a few days apart is what I would start with.

:D:D:D

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Papa Smurf posted this 23 May 2011

Thanks for the come back. The light rust I spoke of can only be seen when I run a clean patch in the bore . I have no pitting as I continue to check,clean,and reoil. I would like to know if I'm not doing a proper cleaning or is there something more I should do. I dont use anything but soap and hot water,dry, then lightly oil. ---------------------------Papa

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rmrix posted this 22 May 2011

   I am no expert on Pyrodex.  I have some RS and Select and I have shot a pound or two over the years. In contrast I have shot untold hundreds of pounds of real BP. For sure they are very different. I can restate what I have read about it.....that the bore fouling after shooting Pyrodex creates much greater cleaning problems than BP does. BP is much mis-understood. But on to the possibility of rust and pitting with Pyrodex. What is thought to be known of it, or at least passed around the net is that a chemical that I will likely not spell correctly, pitchachloride, is one of the products of combustion when shooting Pyrodex. This reacts with the water in the air and really promotes rust and pitting, even under oil. I think that a second cleaning with water or soapy water a few days after the first cleaning is needed to remove problem.

Someone here will have better information than I can provide. That won't be hard. But, in contrast, real BP is only hygroscopic and very easy to deal with. Black Powder is around, It just takes a little more effort up front to find your supply but it IS worth it.

Enjoy the BP while we can still have it!

Michael Rix

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Papa Smurf posted this 22 May 2011

I shoot Pyrodex , It is not as hard to find around here. Do the same ways of cleaning apply ? I have light rust in the bore after several mounths and I do oil the bore after it dryes . Papa needs help.

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Daryl S posted this 08 April 2011

Interesting - mostly cool here when I'm shooting lead and BP - one particularly hot day - low 80's at least and I blew through the bore between shots - 3 breaths to maintain moa accuracy without wiping with the .45/60 Sharps.

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rmrix posted this 07 April 2011

Hunting for me is only one shots in a row if all goes well. I do not even think about wiping while hunting.

This topic morfed from cleaning a bore using petroleun based cleaners into bore managment between shots during a match. As such, wiping in all its varyations and ways and blowtubing has its proven followers, at least under certin conditions. I most like the blow tube for the accuracy I can get with it. This is mostly at a covered firing point. But for shooting under the hot sun, wiping is the way to go. I am around the game a lot. I see all kinds of things being done. I find that there are a lot of RIGHT ways to get accuracy.  No one way rules and that is for sure.

The cooler the easer is the rule until the sub-zero is reached. 

For Creedmoor matches, wiping with water or water/cutting oil mix has wotked well. The AZ match shooters us a 50-50 mix of antifreeze. In any case, two wet patches work most of the time. I use a jag on a flexable rod and others like the nylon bore brush to hold the wet patch. I have used three if the bore feels rough after two. I work the patch rod back and forth as I go through, working it in the places that feel like might need it.

I like the bore wet when I shoot.  I get more leading if I finish up using a dry patch. Accuracy is tops.

  I hope this offers more choices....

-Michael Rix

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Daryl S posted this 07 April 2011

If any residue is being left in the bore - the lube is not doing it's job, in my opinion. It's job is to keep the fouling soft so it is easily removed. If it does this, it will be effectively lubeing the bullet's passage. I would never leave a wet or even damp bore unwiped beore firing a shot.

Paul Mathews once stated the fouling from 10 shots should be completely wiped from the bore with one dry patch or the lube is not doing it's job. The lube is either insufficient for the job, or there is not enough of it.

Once I adherred to this advice and criteria for my testing, my BP rifles started shooting sub MOA out to 200 yards, using lead bullets and straight black powder. I shot without wiping for up to 10 shots as well, but normally shot only 5 shot groups. The new .45 cal. barrel on my Sharps holds sub moa at 100 meters off bags without wiping - bp and lead bullets for 10 shots. It has a tang mounted rear sight and globed aperture on the front.

Considering you are wiping between shots and possibly not getting all the fouling out with a wet then dry patch, I'd look at your lube, bullet or lubing quantity as being faulty.

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Tom Acheson posted this 07 April 2011

Bill,

Your postulation sounds reasonable. Along those lines of post firing residue....

My barrel is a Badger 1:16 twist for .40-70 SS. I started out sizing bullets at .410” just following the old CB rule of sizing .001” to .002” over bore dia. But one of Paul Matthews books and my own subsequent 200-meter group testing showed that Paul's observation seemed correct.

He said that the bullet should be sized at or just under the bore dimension for BP. He didn't say if he was wiping or blowing but his thoughts were that for BP there is so much crud left after each shot that the bullet has to “plow its way” through. making this residue consistent the full length of the bore by wiping each time provides a common condition for each bullet to negotiate and reduces the inconsistency that blowing introduces. We don't do it the same every time. And we are just influencing the chamber area so that we can insert the next round.

I have another range test coming up with my new Paul Jones Money bullet (416 grains in 16:1) where I'll be trying the 16:1 vs. 20:1 alloy. The Brooks Creedmore mould I have preferred the 20:1 and .408” in my .40-65 (Badger 1:16 twist). Other Money bullet users have reported that 16:1 is better for reducing bullet nose “slump". My mv is about 1327 so maybe faster bullets with that nose shape suffer from the slump more. But look at a Creedmore nose...lots of bullet mass out front. Wouldn't that be more susceptible to slumping? Oh well...

Tom

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JetMech posted this 07 April 2011

Tom Acheson wrote: I'd be interested to learn what the 2 bore conditions are and how that influences accuracy, if at all. I would be too, Tom. The objective is to obtain a consistent bore condition for every shot. Maybe the wet/dry method leaves some residue that is harder than that left after just a wet patch. The harder residue have damage the bullet slightly while the wet residue is simply pushed out of the bore.

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