Relining an old 1894 Winchester

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  • Last Post 29 April 2011
Ed Harris posted this 28 March 2011

I acquired a much used 1894 Winchester .30-30 with shot out barrel.  Factory jacketed loads keyholed in the worn barrel and I couldn 't get any cast loads to shoot acceptably, so I sent it out to John Taylor for relining.  It is NOW a .35 cal. based on the .30-30 case, with 16 inch twist.  I wanted a cast bullet rifle in which I could use common .38 and .357 pistol bullets I already had, and using common .30-30 brass.  I also wanted something which could offer performance much like the .32-40 or .38-55 Winchester.

Thanks to Fred Sinclair I obtained a custom Redding die set which easily necks up .30-30 brass to .35 in one pass.  I can use either .32 Winchester Special or .30-30 brass as feedstock.  For now I am using the RCBS 35-200FN bullet with 16 grs. of #2400 for about 1500 fps, but I will explore plainbased bullets also.  Here is some eye candy.  Note the notches on the grip.  I'm presuming these represent deer rather than “bad guys."

    

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 29 April 2011

FYI I measured water capacities of the .35 Remington and .35/.30-30 because I wanted to see how close they were. Brass in both calibers was Winchester, the .35 Remington case was once-fired from a Marlin.

Capacity in grains of water when filled to base of neck:

.35 Remington - 39 grains .35/.30-30 - 34 grains.

Noting when a 200-grain bullet is seated in the .35/.30-30 case, its base is about 1/3 the way up the neck, I took another measurement, this time filling the case neck with water and carefully squeezing out the excess pressing a bullet to the crimp groove in the fired case.

That result was - 37 grains. Looks like .35 Remington data is OK to use as a guide as long as you stay a grain or two below the maximum loads.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Mnshooter posted this 27 April 2011

Should work for that.

DP

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Ed Harris posted this 26 April 2011

Mnshooter wrote: I notice you are keeping the loads rather moderate. Do you plan on any deer hunting with the rifle? Does not take a really heavy load to take a deer, 357 rifle velocies would work. Just curious. DP Plan on shooting deer at "garden range,” not to exceed 50 yards. Will also serve for other varmints, or take wild turkey without blowing the birds to flinders. Big soft bullet designed to expand reliably on substantial game, adequate penetration, but non-destructive on lighter stuff at subsonic velocities with low noise so as not to disturb the neighbors is the goal.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Mnshooter posted this 26 April 2011

I notice you are keeping the loads rather moderate. Do you plan on any deer hunting with the rifle? Does not take a really heavy load to take a deer, 357 rifle velocies would work. Just curious.

DP

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Ed Harris posted this 25 April 2011

I have not, but he shows some examples on his web site in which he has.  Most of my molds have been done in .38/.357 and .30/.32 cals.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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6pt-sika posted this 25 April 2011

Ed Harris wrote: I've had a bunch done, and in all cases have found the money well spent.

Have you ever had one done for a 45 ACP ?

I had thoughts of making a 230 grainer made into a HP for a 1911 !

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Ed Harris posted this 25 April 2011

I've had a bunch done, and in all cases have found the money well spent.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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6pt-sika posted this 25 April 2011

Ed Harris wrote: Here is a fine example of what Erik at http://www.hollowpointmold.com>http://www.hollowpointmold.com can do in modifying a standard mold into something more useful.

I've been debating sending a couple molds to this fellow !

I'm thinking of HP'ing a Lyman 429215 , 429244 , 429650 as well as RCBS 44-225GC SWC , 44-240GC SWC and 44-300GC SWC would be nice additions to my 444 stable of molds !

 

I'm not totally convinced the HP versions of these six molds will do any better then their FN versions , but I've never been one to turn down more molds for my overgrown stable of 444's ;)

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Ed Harris posted this 25 April 2011

Here is a fine example of what Erik at http://www.hollowpointmold.com>http://www.hollowpointmold.com can do in modifying a standard mold into something more useful. The Saeco #351 is a plainbased, spitzer design intended for use in the .357 Contender pistol. The mold I got from Midway did not look like the catalog picture, otherwise I probably wouldn't have gotten it.

Its original spitzer nose was too long to feed through a 94 Winchester if crimped in the crimp groove. Its .12 diameter meplat was smaller than I wanted to chance using in a tubular magazine. Its bore riding nose of .350 was too small in diameter to engage the rifling. The  bearing surface of the bullet was less than 1.5 times its diameter, so wasn't sure that it would shoot well. Almost everything was wrong, but I couldn't return the mold because I had cast a bunch of bullets from various alloys to try.  Firing tests confirmed it didn't shoot as well as the RCBS 35-200FN, so I remelted the lead and was “stuck” with the mold.

Mom always told me when you have lemons, make lemonade. So, I sent it off to Erik with an upset throat slug from my Winchester 94 relined and rechambered to .35/.30-30. Erik did his inset-bar conversion truncating the nose to produce a .25 diameter meplat, with a nose length of .50 from the crimp groove to flat. The nose cavity is 60 degrees included angle and 0.6 of the meplat diameter. He cut a new front driving band ahead of the crimp groove which is .175 wide and .359 diameter to fit the throat of the rifle. He also widened and enlarged the rear driving band while reducing the width and depth of the lube groove to strengthen the base. I was not concerned with lube groove capacity because I will use lee Liquid Alox and the entire surface of the bullet will be “slobbered” anyway. The resulting modified plainbased bullet weighs 200 grains in soft BHN 10 alloy, vs. 208 grs. for the original Saeco spitzer.

Overall cartridge length crimped in reformed .30-30 brass is 2.52", which is about ideal. The bullet shoots better than I can hold with 8 grs. of Bullseye. More loading tinkering to come...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Mnshooter posted this 23 April 2011

I am surprised the Browning had that problem. My Rossi supports the foreend with the tubular magaine and there was no give between the barrel and the magazine. Most of the problems I have heard of have been with either Winchesters or their clones.

DP

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galenaholic posted this 23 April 2011

" It required loosening the front barrel bands and relieving the forestock to free float as that was also very tight.  Another individual claimed he had to do that.  While I do believe most was in the too tight forestock,"

I had to do that on a Browning BLR in .358 Win. that I bought. I had to elieve the barrel band andliterally free float the barrel enough that it now rattles. :shock: The difference is not the rifle is usually MOA and sometimes slightly sub-MOA depending on the load. Quite and improvement from walking from right to left with three shots moving 4 to 5” from where the first shot hit. Mine is one of the original BLR's with the magazine that hangs way down below the receiver. Now, if and when I get time I'll start trying the different cast bullets that I have molds for that rifle. If anyone has suggestions for loads, I have 200 and 250 gr. bullets cast up.

Paul B.

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Mnshooter posted this 23 April 2011

A gunsmith tht used to sight in a lot of 94's told me that.  They can start to act up when the barrel heats up. He would shoot about once or twice and then let it cool and do another rifle, then shoot it again.  I have a Rossi Winchester 92 copy in 357 that would walk right up the paper with about every shot.  It required loosening the front barrel bands and relieving the forestock to free float as that was also very tight.  Another individual claimed he had to do that.  While I do believe most was in the too tight forestock, it did help to loosen the bands a bit.  Does not make much difference when the gun is shot cold or a couple of times as in a hunting situation.  I ahve also had Winchesters that did not act up.  Probably one of those things that happens every so often to a few rifles and not to all of them.

DP

 

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frank l jr posted this 23 April 2011

glad to see you recovering well.the rifle is a jewel, way to go. see ya frank l jr

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6pt-sika posted this 23 April 2011

Mnshooter wrote: Your sins should be forgiven as a rifle should be made to shoot and hunt with. Th barrel bands can be a pain anyway as they can play havoc with accuracy.

I used to think that exact same thing !

When I was at my high point collecting Marlin's I probably had 75% of the 90+ Marlin's in my accumulation without barrel bands !

However I'm now about 92% barrel banded with the 25 Marlin's I still have . And believe it or not they all seem to shoot my cast loads very well barrel bands or not !

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Mnshooter posted this 22 April 2011

Your sins should be forgiven as a rifle should be made to shoot and hunt with. Th barrel bands can be a pain anyway as they can play havoc with accuracy. Looking at the notches I knew a few old timers using a 30-30 where each notch would have to be for every 10 deer. I have shot a lot of deer and have gone back to that caliber as the more powerful cartridges just blew up a lot of deer meat. My daughter got 3 deer the first year hunting with a 30-30, so why should I let a little girl show me up??? Teh 35-30 is just another version of a fine old caliber.

DP

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Ed Harris posted this 22 April 2011

Rifle does not have barrel bands because it was originally built in 1908 as a “short rifle” and not as a carbine. Due to extreme state of wear it has very limited collector value, so I felt the sin of relining it would be forgiven to let the old girl back into the deer woods where she belongs.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Mnshooter posted this 22 April 2011

Interesting thread. I have heard of the 35-30 or whatever it is called. It is mentioned in “Cartridges of the World” under wildcats. I think they load it to about the same as a 35 Remington. The rifle itself has got to be an old one as it does not have the barrel rings and that old sight is intriguing.

DP

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Ed Harris posted this 22 April 2011

Just received back from Erik at http://www.hollowpointmold.com>http://www.hollowpointmold.com a Saeco #351 double-cavity modified to .250 meplat with cup point, new .359 driving band .175 wide cut ahead of crimp groove to fill throat, base band enlarged to .359 and widened to .12, lube groove reduced in width and depth to strengthen base band and put some weight back into bullet to partly make up for the loss where spitzer point was truncated to make the .250 meplat.

Resulting bullet has nice long bearing surface and shorter bore riding nose which now fits the throat of the 94 lever-action perfectly, casts .359 diameter and 201 grains from 10 BHN soft backstop lead. Looks sort of like a .38-55 slug which shrunk in the washing machine. Crimp groove and one small grease groove not much larger than the crimp groove.  That's all that should be necessary because I will use this plainbase with the Lee Liquid Alox, and it will be slobbered all over anyway.

Goal is low noise with good balance of expansion and penetration for adequate "smash” on deer or large varmints in garden out to about 100 yards without disturbing the neighbors. First trial out of the box will probably be about 8 grains of Bullseye.

Will post photos and groups when I have some to show.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 21 April 2011

galenaholic wrote: Hope you heal up quikly from your surgery. I had mine done 6 years ago and I'm testing clean and green. B) Been back to work two weeks.  Still technically on light duty, but easing back into my field work. Last night walked an hour on the treadmill, moderate pace of 2.5 mph, with 5 degree incline.  Not enough to get winded, but enough to break a sweat and improve general muscle tone and condition.  Doc says I can start again on the weight machine in May, but only at 1/2 of the weight I was using pre-surgery and 1/2 the reps, see how that goes. Looking more for restoring muscle tone and range of motion. Add back 10% per week and within 4-6 weeks or so, 90 days post-surgery, should be almost back where I was without restriction.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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docbob posted this 20 April 2011

Ed, Glad you're doing ok. I think you did a good thing relining the ol' girl. That's gotta be a fun cartridge to shoot and much more fun than just looking at an old rifle that wouldn't shoot accurately anymore.

   Doc

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