Moderate .32 loads & smallgame(?)

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  • Last Post 05 April 2013
Davo posted this 25 January 2012

Terminal Ballistics of .30/.32 cal. on smallgame...(?)

I've shot some edible small stuff w/ .31 to .36 cal. roundballs and a .22LR or Short case-ful of Red Dot in various rifles, but what I shot mostly was 1,650 fps 115 gr. FN from .32-20 rifles, mostly for plinking “fun", some competitions, and once in awhile  offhand headshots on smallgame out to 30 yds. I sometimes carried roundball loads in Marlin .32-20s w/ one chambered and one on the cart. lifter for a “two-shot repeater".

I can no longer take for granted the ability to “hold hard” or sight and shoot a rifle quickly enuff to shoot like that:(, so I am asking about body shots w/ RN .32's @ 800 to 900 fps. Does such a load kill quickly and reliably with a decent shoulder/heart/lung hit? Minimal battered meat/bloodshot?(I'me thinking mainly of squirrel, grouse and cottontails as basic ingrediants for tastey/healthy meals :D)(Grouse soaked overnight in cheap wine, cooked and served w/ wild rice is my favorite meal!... “Grice” it's called in our little cabin! :-)

Ed has got me lusting after a long-barreled .32 Beretta M-70, (since I like my very reliable 40-year-old .22 M-70 so well),  and if I use X/S white bead front sight and a generous rear notch I might be able to see sights well enough and have enough sight radius, that with alot of practice I just might be able to take smallgame with a pistol again :-)

Never shot game with a .32 auto..... .32 H&R's, .32-20's, light loads in 30-30, even one squirrel off a tree limb thru the roof of his mouth & out the back of his head w/ a  cast 200 gr. .44Spl. as he was scolding me ;-) ,  but no “real-world” experience w/.32 acp, so I'de like to know what to expect.

Thanks in advance for any answers! Davo

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delmarskid1 posted this 05 April 2013

I've been shooting 3.2g AA2 over the H&G 148 button nose for a few years now. I have no chronograph. Sometimes I lube size, some times I wet them down with Rooster Jacket after going through the Lee .358” sizing die. I get no leading with either but the tumble lubed rounds leave my gun much cleaner. No oily powder fouling. For laughs I shoot off the ground on my butt at 100 yards. I'll be sad when I run out. Run out of lube that is. No shortage of butt.

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Ed Harris posted this 04 April 2013

blue45colt wrote: Dale & Ed,Thanks for the additional information.... I will try reducing the amount of lube..... I'll have to figure out how to adjust the lube/sizer to do this...may have to plug some lube holes in the die.....Tom

In the Lyman or RCBS lubricators adjust the stop collar upward towards the die to limit how far the bullet base enters when pushed down. This is a cut & try thing.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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blue45colt posted this 04 April 2013

Dale & Ed, Thanks for the additional information...lots of good stuff here. I will try reducing the amount of lube & see what happens. I'll have to figure out how to adjust the lube/sizer to do this...may have to plug some lube holes in the die. I'm using a 50/50 mix of moly lube/beeswax per Glen Fryxell's suggestion.

Tom

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Dale53 posted this 04 April 2013

blue45colt: Here is a thread with some more information for you:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=6625&forum_id=4>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=6625&forumid=4

Dale53

P.S. Here is “The” thread on the .38 Special (I suggest you read all of it:)): http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=1383&forumid=4

rdm

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Ed Harris posted this 04 April 2013

Winchester Super Match (1970s yellow box) Colt Officer's Model Match 6” bbl. 783fps, 7Sd

Remington 148HBWC, Remington case, Rem. 1-1/2 primer, flush seated 3.0 Bullseye (1992 Alliant) Colt 6” 758, 20Sd 3.2 Bullseye, Colt 6” 805, 5 Sd 3.5 Bullseye, Colt 6” 847, 8 Sd

Saeco #348 146-gr. DEWC, crimped in groove 1.25” OAL 4.0 W231 Colt 6” 837fps, 11Sd 3.5 SR7625 Colt 6” 748 fps, 6Sd 3.5 Bullseye Colt 6” (pre-1976 Hercules) 863, 22Sd 3.5 Bullseye Colt 6” (1992 Alliant) 845, 11Sd

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Dale53 posted this 04 April 2013

Blue45colt; I have not chronographed that load. However, Ed Harris has and has reported on it on this forum. In fact, I was kind of following Ed's lead...

My particular mold is the H&G #50 BB in a four cavity version (I also have used my H&G Dbl Ended Wadcutter #251 in a six cavity version with excellent results). The #50 is close enough to your Lyman 358495 that it makes little difference.

E.H. Harrison ran extensive machine rest tests and reported in the old NRA Handloading manual wherein he learned that he got substantially better accuracy when using only one grease groove. Since the development of NRA 50/50 we have been blessed with better lubes than the original bullets were designed for. I consider Carnauba Red to be in the “improved” category and find it does well with one groove (better than more). In the sixties and seventies I started using a Ransom Rest and it confirmed what E.H. Harrison (May he rest in peace) stated.

Years ago, when I was much younger, Michigan's UP was one of my favorite hunting destinations for grouse, timber doodle and snowshoe rabbit. Great experiences with great hunting companions.

Dale53

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blue45colt posted this 02 April 2013

Dale53

Looking at your post #15, it appears that you are only lubing the lower grove in your cast wadcutters. I have a S&W M60-4 like yours that I'm in the process of developing a good wadcutter load. I have a mold, Lyman 358495, that produces a bullet very similar to yours, may be the same. I've been lubing all of the grooves and after seeing yours, wonder if that is really necessary. I'm using 231 & Universal powders for this in the range of 3.5/4.5 gr. I don't yet know what velocities I'm getting. Do you happen to know what velocity you are running these wadcutters?

Like yourself I've found that a .38 wadcutter does minimal damage but wacks small game graveyard dead. Hunted grouse this past October in Michigan's UP & carried it in a cross draw holster...never knew it was there until needed...great gun for this application.

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mckg posted this 21 March 2013

Thanks Ed; but isn't the process supposed to be secret? I wouldn't want my favorite cba member to get in trouble :(.

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Ed Harris posted this 21 March 2013

mckg wrote: Ed, I guess you would have said..., but was that process similar to what they do to the 454 Super Redhawk?

Yes! They've done several variations, the LE versions come out darker than some others. They may skip the hot acid pickle passivating step in normal production.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 21 March 2013

mckg wrote: Ed, I guess you would have said..., but was that process similar to what they do to the 454 Super Redhawk?

Yes! They've done several variations, the LE versions come out darker than some others. They may skip the hot acid pickle passivating step in normal production.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mckg posted this 21 March 2013

Ed, I guess you would have said..., but was that process similar to what they do to the 454 Super Redhawk?

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Ed Harris posted this 21 March 2013

When I was at Ruger they developed a vibratory matte finish for stainless law enforcement orders. This produced a flat gray color with no shine whatever. This was to meet specific requirements for government orders and was not used for normal production so far as In know. However, I have seen it again, so they are doing it again on some models.

It was accomplished by tumbling the parts in an industrial sized version of a Dillon case tumbler, if you could imagine one eight feet across and four feet deep. A mixture of ceramic media and soft stainless steel shot were used in a water-based solution with a very fine feldspar compound similar to Bon Ami. After tumbling the parts were cleaned and passivated in a hot chemical bath, followed by a distilled water rinse and final wash in a water soluable oil before sending the parts out to the factory floor for final assembly, inspection and test firing.

While some people did not like its appearance, the result is durable and non-reflective, sort of like light gray Parkerizing.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Dale53 posted this 19 March 2013

I hope no one minds me re-visiting this older post. I always enjoy sharing with other woods walkers our tools of choice.

Re-reading this whole thread, I find that I disagree on “proper” handgun finish. I spent a good amount of time in Eastern Ohio grouse hunting (I live in Western Ohio and we have no grouse here). After traveling several hours to hunt (and often camp) if the weather turns bad (snow and/or rain) we often continued to hunt. When it's raining you can just about watch your handgun rust if it's not stainless. Before Ohio got concealed carry, we had to have our handguns showing (concealed handguns were illegal). The same thing applied in Michigan (at the time).

I became VERY fond of stainless handguns if they have black sights. Both my 631 and the Model 60 shown above have black sights and they have never given me a problem in the woods.

I have taken my share of large whitetail deer with a handgun but I'll tell you, it's just about as big a thrill to bring home a brace of cottontails or snowshoe rabbits with a grouse or two thrown in as it is to shoot a deer (not QUITE as big a thrill, but close). When shotgunning for grouse with my Beretta Silver Snipe is is nice to have a little revolver for the occasional cripple or sitting rabbit. It's amazing how many opportunities I have been presented with sitting rabbits when hunting grouse. I would MUCH rather put one hole through a rabbit with the handgun than shoot with the shotgun. Impresses the family to no end, also;). They appreciate not having to pick shot out of their teeth...

FWIW Dale53

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Ed Harris posted this 10 August 2012

I agree on matte blue vs. bright stainless. Full chg. WC works. No need for HP for anything under 100 lbs.

o

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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william iorg posted this 09 August 2012

Dale I prefer the dull black finish as we have quite a bit of bright sunlight which always seems to be on my back. The stainless gune like the 32 Magnum Kit Gun is a bright ball of light with the sun on your back. Like you I spray the red ramp front sight with sight black so I can see it in the field. Against our brown dirt and vegetation the red ramp is washed out and I end up holding up too much front sight.

Coincidence but I have FS 213 with Ed's article Revisiting the full charge wadcutter and the “FBI” Load out along with Ed McGiverns fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting to show a friend what has been and can be done with wadcutters.edir: sorry I was thinking of a different picture when I mentioned the blacked sight.

Slim

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Dale53 posted this 09 August 2012

This is a bit off topic but I have also found my model 60 Chief Target to be a fine field load for edible small game. Contrary to the above comments, I have found the 148 gr solid wadcutter to be a fine load and in my experience it doesn't overly damage small game. It's effect is instant, but without serious tearing. It just puts a .38 caliber hole straight through it. If I can't manage a head shot, then a “behind the shoulder” hit does just fine. It handles the much larger snowshoe rabbits just like it does the cottontails.

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RicinYakima posted this 05 February 2012

Gentlemen,

What a great thread! Davo, thanks for starting this topic up.

Those that know me & know my writing & use of the 32/20, also suspect that I have a great affection for the cartridge. For me it is its versatility, the ability to kill coyotes at any angle with Lyman 311316 at 1600 f/s, quietly and surely. It is a good small edible game round, but not with that load. It requires about a 90 grains bullet at 1000 f/s or less.

Slim,

My newly made Remington RB #2 in 32 H&R is a rifle for edible small game, but it is not a dependable coyote killer for the western rancher. Now that we are having cougar problems even down here on the valley floor, it is not what you want to take to the lambing pens at night.

This winter I have been playing with some black powder 32 S&W's and round balls in the old nickel plated specials. Some are pretty accurate, but don't shoot to sights. I think these would be good game pistols, but they are loud compared to Bullseye or SR7625 loads.

Ric

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william iorg posted this 05 February 2012

Ed, Freedom Arms is selling primed Federal brass. Don't know how they got a bulk quantity but they have it. I assume it is because Freedom is working on their proprietary 22-327 intended for their new single shot pistol.

For most of our small game hunting no need for more than the 32 H&R Magnum and as you said, for small game the 32 S&W Long has great utility.

When I was a kid in the 1960's the old small game hunters got me interested in the 32 Long Rimfire - 82-grain bullet at 945 fps from a rifle. The 32 Long Rimfire was highly thought of by subsistence hunters in the 1920's and ‘30's Southwest.

The 1930's and ‘40's American Rifleman magazine has many short articles, letters and comments on the 25-20's, .32 Rimfires, supplemental chambers and reduced loads for larger cartridges.

When I look at new product introductions and tests today, I am confused. Dazzling pictures and no substance, gadgets and gimmicks which distract from the use of the product. I have compared product introductions from the past with those of today. The introduction of the 270 Winchester cartridge, the Winchester Model 71, the introduction of the Model 70 etc. While these articles by Al Barr and others did not involve many pictures - all black and white - every paragraph did have useful information and accurate

Reporting of results. There were no three shot groups in a pre-WWII firearm road test.

My wife and I feel the same about our 3” M31 S&W. This is a wonderful little revolver which fits the coat or blue jeans pocket perfectly - when I was a kid I wore overalls all the time (Blue Suit) but today it is just the Carhart overalls on cold days.

I hope to oneday try the LBT Ogival wadcutter in the 32's. I wish Veral would do two cavities - 1 with the plain base and a 2nd with a gas check shank.

We have two 32-20's - a Savage M-23 and a Marlin 1894CL. I do not find the 32-20 to be as useful and simple to load for as the 32 S&W Long or 32 H&R Magnum. It is not difficult to load the 32-20 but it is easier to load accurate ammunition for the 32 S&W Long.

Along these lines I have found traditional bullets driven at low velocities to be better killers on small game, provide better accuracy and longer point blank range than round balls. Short, round nose bullets driven at low velocity are easier to load and will remain inside small critters such as rabbits and skunks - just as the round ball.

One of my boyhood hero's, General Vernon E. Megee, wrote of his use of the .25 Stevens rimfire in South America, the 32 Long Colt in Central America and the 32 S&W Long in Central Texas. Megee liked the round ball in the 32-20, 32 S&W Long and in the 30-30. I don't know which of his articles had the most influence on me but the picture of him shooting his Ruger No. 1 - 32 S&W Long rifle in the April 1971 issue of Shooting Times rates high in my memory.Megee had Ruger barrel a Ruger No. 1 with a 22” .308” barrel using a 222 extractor, he dubbed this outfit his “Deluxe Squirrel Rifle.” Megee knew the 1-10” twist was too fast so he used the Speer half jacket 100-grain plinker bullets.

I agree the 32-20 loaded with cast bullets and Unique is a good small game load the 32 S&W Long loaded with lead bullets and Bullseye may well give smaller groups with less noise. The 32-20 loaded with Bullseye has never given me quite a se good results as with the smaller case.

J.R. Mattern wrote of good results with 50-grain round balls in the 32-20 loaded ahead of 4.0 grains of Bulk Shotgun powder. These loads delivering approximately 600 fps. Mattern wrote he used a lubricated wad under the round balls.

I appreciate quiet in a small game rifle and our 24” 32 H&R Magnum TC barrel allows us to shoot the occasional shot without ear protection and no ringing ears.

I too have a fondness for the 22 Winchester Rimfire Magnum. Elmer Keith wrote of the introduction of the 22 WRM in 1959 by recounting his experiences with the 22 WRF on small game. I bought one of “Elmer's Little Cuties” a 3 ½” S&W Model 51. I have a fondness for .22WMR and the Model 51 but the Model 631 4” in 32 H&R Magnum is a more versatile handgun because of the wide variety of cast bullets available to the .32 caliber cartridges.

I may be alone in this but 50 yards is a long shot for me when it comes to small game - although tall trees have a way of lengthening the distance. Low velocity .32 caliber loads are easy to hit with from 10 feet to 50 yards.

I agree with the last post, I have no need to cut an animal in two in the back yard. I prefer a lightweight, reasonably quite rifle which will generally leave its bullet in the body of a small critter. I am pleased to see I am not alone in this line of thought.

Slim

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Davo posted this 04 February 2012

That is real interstign about the importance of nose-form (FN vs. RN).

Long ago I found factory .38Spl. WCs WAY to detructive on smallgame

I have used #0 or #00 buckshot over a .22Short to LR caseful of Red Dot in 30-30 and then for a decade or so, in.32-20 rifles. THis was accurate enough for headshots in certain rifles with rifling compatible to the"the load". and killed squirrels & grouse better tahn .22LR RNs with shoulder/heart/lung shots. Suirresl would fall out of the trees liek a damp rag instead of running off, or deseprately holding on to twigs for minutes before cashing in their chips. (And was nearly “suppressor quiet".)

I flat-nose .22LR except for some truly effective H.P's (like Win. 40 gr. Power-Point h.p., CCI 40 gr. sub-soni h.p., etc....) A .22LR flat-nose/SGB profile, seems to kill nearly as well as a good h.p. on varmints, and to leave only a permanent wound channel about the dia. of a pencil thru shoulders of bunnies/squirrells. Any “game animal", incl. ones I am not usually going to consider for eating purposes : ground squirrels, skunks that have become pests), marmots/woodchucks and such I still want to put-down wit no histrionics...DRT/pop-'-flop, way more humanely than their “nautural predators” will treat them. With vermin, a DRT would be fine with me, but knowing you have hard-hit a stock-killing feral dog, smallgame and song-bird eradicating cat, etc., even if IS “just a FNed .22LR” , is a “good shot” even if they get away to die in the brush, in my books.

When I lived-with .32-20 for a decade, I quit even loads w/100 gr. XTP @ 1,800 fps, since an FN 100gr. @ 1,650 fps worked really well on every critter hit with it. A little “TOO well” on body-shot on edible smallgame, but at that time I was still steady enough to shot well offhand and for the head, even on grouse out to 30 yds. The roundball/very quiet load was for my own “fun” and to take smallgame very near my druggie nay-bore's places w/o them being aware of it ;-)

Now that I have had the cataract surgery thing, and have had serious sickness taek me down physically and can no longer hold steady enough off-hand to head-shoot the head of an 81 yd. steel turkey target, 4/5 on a regular basis, I am looking for relativley quiet alibers/loadings to kill smallgame just a bit more surely than w/ a .22LR, even w/FN or good h.p.

I have a fondness for .22WMR, and by neccessity have re-discovered how great a smallgame cart. the .22WRF 45 gr. gilded lead w/small meplat realy IS. A couple of good WMR rifles “0"ed @ 81 yds. shoot the Win. WRF load “on” @ 50 yds. if I hold an inch or so to the left.

I believe there is a neccessity for more than a few of us to “carry a pistol” but I am NOT packign N-frame S&W.s , SAA, or 1911's anymore! I have owned a 6".22LR M-70 Beretta for 40 years, and after reading here about the long-barreled M-70 in .32 I have determined to get my own. Just like the light rifles and shotguns I have found that I can still carry and use reasonably well. I am after a pistol that I could take smallgame at 15 or 20 yds. and not make a mess out a little critter I would like to cook-up, but that still would be a defensive firearm if needs-be....

Thanks for the input on what to expect of less radical FN/blunt RN out of .32's @ moderate vel.! (Great site here, and I think Plinker's Hollow” is my “favorite” place on it! :-) Davo

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Dale53 posted this 04 February 2012

Ed Harris; Don't you realize what a spend thrift you are? My goodness, you will only get 3500 loads per lb of Bullseye with that load.

SHAME!! ;)

Actually, I have always considered the real world performance of my .32's (good accuracy, light recoil, and excellent small game performance) but having economic benefits (lots of loads per lb. of powder, and small amounts of lead) is just an excellent side benefit.

FWIW Dale

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