CAST .22 BULLET ACCURACY VARIES WIDELY, DAY TO DAY

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  • Last Post 04 February 2017
joeb33050 posted this 21 January 2017

Cast 22 bullet accuracy varies a lot from day to day. Savage Striker 22-250, 225646M, SR4756, 8.0 gr, 5 shots 100 yards “ 

4/25/16---.250, 1.1, .850; avg 1.067 

12/2/15---1.25, 1.6, 1.4, 1.05, .85, avg 1.23 

2/29/16---1.5, 1.15, .7, 1.6, 1.2; avg 1.23 

5/4/16---1.6, .95; avg 1.275 

3/5/16---1.75, 1.25, 1.6, .95, 1.85; avg 1.48 

3/3/16---2, 1.175, 3, 1.875, 1.6; avg 1.93 

The average for the 25 groups above is 1.404” 

1/20/17---The first 9 shots were all over the paper, no detectable groups. 

I have tried to find the reason for this variation, and so far it escapes me. There are many other examples.

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max503 posted this 21 January 2017

I'm just wondering if it has something to do with the amount of fouling or residual lube in the bore.

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99 Strajght posted this 21 January 2017

Sometime with cast bullets I have found the same thing. The amount of time from between when I reload and shoot sometime can cause different  accuracy. I think it could be neck tension. I think the bullet might adhere to the case. I have also seem it with jacketed bullets.   Glenn

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OU812 posted this 21 January 2017

Aging of cast bullets has an effect on bullet hardness and accuracy. Pressure should match alloy hardness. I am now letting my cast bullets age at least 2 weeks before testing to see if this helps.

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frnkeore posted this 21 January 2017

I note that you've been doing low velocity jacketed testing. 

Did you get the jacketed fouling out, before going back to cast?

Frank

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joeb33050 posted this 21 January 2017

I note that you've been doing low velocity jacketed testing. 

Did you get the jacketed fouling out, before going back to cast?

Frank

I shoot the cast first, in a clean barrel.

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joeb33050 posted this 22 January 2017

I note that you've been doing low velocity jacketed testing. 

Did you get the jacketed fouling out, before going back to cast?

Frank

I shoot the cast first, in a clean barrel. After 9 cast and 30 jacketed bullets the barrel cleaned easily and fast. With Hoppes #9 left in the barrel, 4 times, left to work for a few hours, there was a little green on the 4 patches. The next few patches showed no green. I'm looking for copper fouling, and finding very little, frequently none. This at low velocities.

joe b.

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frnkeore posted this 22 January 2017

Try some Sweets or another that's made specficly for copper, just to make sure.

 

Frank

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onondaga posted this 22 January 2017

Joe, you won't change results unless you make a major change in something and evaluate just that change. Try something completely different that works for me and is something that you show no interest in.. Get a Hoppe's BoreSnake and use nothing else for the test, Pull it through 3 times on a dirty rifle before you start a string, then pull it through once every 5 shots, Use nothing on the BoreSnake, no solvents or oil. Just use it clean and dry.  This routine maintains relatively constant bore condition. It is not immaculate and that is the point.  Your starting from an immaculate bore leaves a bore that quickly changes. The changing bore conditions from starting with an immaculate bore stinks for maintaining relative consistent bore condition.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/260083/hoppes-boresnake-bore-cleaner-rifle

 

Gary

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onondaga posted this 25 January 2017

Joe, are you speechless and in shock at my recommendation? Or, have you ordered a BoreSnake?

 

Gary

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joeb33050 posted this 25 January 2017

Joe, are you speechless and in shock at my recommendation? Or, have you ordered a BoreSnake?

 

Gary

 

Gary;

I'm not in shock and never speechless. After shooting 9 cbs all over the paper, the next 5 jacketed bullets shot into an average of .905". It wasn't bore condition. I know you love the bore snake, and I hope you are very happy.

joe b.

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HuskerP7M8 posted this 25 January 2017

 

Hi Joe, 

 

After I read your post and looked at the group ES (Extreme Spread) for the 25 groups you shot, it didn't appear to me that the variation in ES was abnormal. Since I was curious, I decided to conduct a very simple check to possibly verify if your group sizes and group size averages varied more than we would expect to see. 

 

Are you familiar with the term COV (Coefficient Of Variation)? 

 

Again, to keep this very simple, for those who aren't statistical nerds like me, the COV varies based on the number of shots used to form each group.

It's an easy calculation that's nothing more than the Standard Deviation divided by the Average, and if you use Excel, format the cell which contains the formula as a percentage. The end result is a percentage that tells you how much variation, on average, you can expect to see when shooting a string of groups. 

 

In your case, using 5-shot groups, the COV should be approximately 25%.

If you had used 2-shot groups in your testing, the COV would be expected to be approximately 50%. And, the COV will be different for 3-shot groups, 10-shot, 25-shot, 50-shot, etc. 

 

Take a look at the Excel chart below using your data and notice that the COV, on average, is 28.7%. That's very close to the expected COV using 5-shot groups and will converge closer to the 25% value as the size of the sample increases. 

 

There are many other better statistical tools available to determine if your variation is excessive, but COV is the simplest to understand and easiest to use. 

 

Landy

 

 

“In God we trust; all others must bring data.” “Without data, you're just another person with an opinion.” “If you can't describe what you are doing as a process, you don't know what you're doing.” “It is not enough to do your best, you must know what to do, and then do your best.” W. Edwards Deming (October 14, 1900 - December 20, 1993)

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joeb33050 posted this 25 January 2017

 

Hi Joe, 

 

After I read your post and looked at the group ES (Extreme Spread) for the 25 groups you shot, it didn't appear to me that the variation in ES was abnormal. Since I was curious, I decided to conduct a very simple check to possibly verify if your group sizes and group size averages varied more than we would expect to see. 

 

Are you familiar with the term COV (Coefficient Of Variation)? 

 

Again, to keep this very simple, for those who aren't statistical nerds like me, the COV varies based on the number of shots used to form each group.

It's an easy calculation that's nothing more than the Standard Deviation divided by the Average, and if you use Excel, format the cell which contains the formula as a percentage. The end result is a percentage that tells you how much variation, on average, you can expect to see when shooting a string of groups. 

 

In your case, using 5-shot groups, the COV should be approximately 25%.

If you had used 2-shot groups in your testing, the COV would be expected to be approximately 50%. And, the COV will be different for 3-shot groups, 10-shot, 25-shot, 50-shot, etc. 

 

Take a look at the Excel chart below using your data and notice that the COV, on average, is 28.7%. That's very close to the expected COV using 5-shot groups and will converge closer to the 25% value as the size of the sample increases. 

 

There are many other better statistical tools available to determine if your variation is excessive, but COV is the simplest to understand and easiest to use. 

 

Landy

 

Thanks, but you missed the point. The 9 shots all over the paper, twice, is the variation I'm talking about.

joe b. 

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Larry Gibson posted this 25 January 2017

Joe 

Do we know the velocity of the load on 80 - 90 degree days vs the velocity on 50 degree days? 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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HuskerP7M8 posted this 25 January 2017

You're correct. Proves I shouldn't speed read and then post. LOL

Landy

“In God we trust; all others must bring data.” “Without data, you're just another person with an opinion.” “If you can't describe what you are doing as a process, you don't know what you're doing.” “It is not enough to do your best, you must know what to do, and then do your best.” W. Edwards Deming (October 14, 1900 - December 20, 1993)

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joeb33050 posted this 25 January 2017

Joe 

Do we know the velocity of the load on 80 - 90 degree days vs the velocity on 50 degree days? 

LMG

Well, I don't. I don't know how much v varies with t, and can't remember reading anything about it. I gave my chronograph away a while back. A guy came to the range with a radar chronograph a few weeks ago, maybe I need one of those. I've got 21 of the 225646M ctgs left, and a Shilen barrel due today, 9” twist. I'll try the ctgs in the new barrel.

joe b. 

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joeb33050 posted this 26 January 2017

The Shilen 22-250 barrel, 9' twist, went on a Savage M 10, and break in began.After a lot of shooting and cleaning,  The 21 225646M 8/sr4756 loads wouldn't stay in a basketball at 100 yards, so it ain't the temperature or twist or gun or shooter or anything  I can see.

At the end of the session, Hornady 53 gr V Max, 7.5  Titegroup went into 1.2” and .8” for 5 shots at 100 yards.

joe b.  

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 January 2017

unexpected results ...

some of our greatest breakthroughs in knowledge have come from unexpected results ....  line spectra instead of continous frequency range of energy of atomic emission  ..

...that was the good news ....

hmmmm ...

ken

oh, at times in the past when facing a seemingly paradoxical dilemma ... i reach into my billfold and pull out my little  * rescue * ... card ...

it reads '"  there is something wrong “

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frnkeore posted this 27 January 2017

At this point, with a new barrel, you need to measure the bore and groove size, as well as the bore ride and bands of the bullet. Maybe it fits ok but, you don't know that until it's measured.

If you can't do that, make sure that you push the nose of the bullet into bore, at the muzzle, to see if it engraves well.

Again, I would like to suggest the Lee 55 gr bullet. It has a larger bore riding nose than most of the others. At least try to borrow some.

Frank

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GP Idaho posted this 27 January 2017

Joe:  I have a lot of 22 Lee Bators (55gr.) and 60gr. Saeco bullets cast up if you need some to give a try in the new barrel please feel free to PM me for samples.  Gp

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OU812 posted this 28 January 2017

Barrel fouling, poor bullet to throat fit, inconsistent chamber pressures............and so on.

I am slowly figuring it out...I think?

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Scearcy posted this 28 January 2017

GP Idaho

I have an 8 twist 22-250 sitting in the basement which has never tasted cast. Joe has really captured my attention with his work. Could I buy  or trade for a bunch of those Saeco bullets?  I happen to have 800 new 6MM bullets and a couple of thousand 30 cal bullets if like me you prefer trading to selling??

Jim

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joeb33050 posted this 28 January 2017

Joe:  I have a lot of 22 Lee Bators (55gr.) and 60gr. Saeco bullets cast up if you need some to give a try in the new barrel please feel free to PM me for samples.  Gp

 

Gp;

I have some Bator and ?60 gr Saeco bullets you sent in the past. Some Saeco are plain base-do you have a blue dot or unique load for these? 223 or 22-250? If these show promise I may ask for more.

Thanks;

joe b.

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GP Idaho posted this 29 January 2017

Hello Joe, I'd forgotten what was in that batch. If any more are needed feel free to ask.  I've been a bit stuck on the TiteGroup powder since you got me interested in the 22s. The only Blue Dot I've tried with them were those few loads I chronographed for you and they were pretty under powered IMO.  Unique is one I'll try if it ever stops snowing. We're on a near record year for snow here in Idaho and it just keeps coming. I'll be down to Florida mid Feb. to mid March and could really use some sunshine. I've had a few excellent groups with the flat base 60s using just 3.5gr of TiteGroup, this in 223 and have tried both RL7 and 4227 with no improvement out of my 223s just burned more powder. I haven't shot  my Savage 22-250 much lately as the 1 in 14 twist isn't very friendly to the bullets that drop from the moulds I own. Thanks again for your help with the 22s.  Gp                       

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GP Idaho posted this 29 January 2017

Scearcy;  I'd be glad too help you out Jim. I'll PM you.  Gp

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GP Idaho posted this 31 January 2017

Hope you got the PM Jim. I'm still getting use to this new forum lay out. Gp

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OU812 posted this 01 February 2017

Joe,

Today I was weighing powder charges and discovered that my Lyman beam scale was not operating smoothly. So I dusted scales off and cleaned pivot area well. Scales seem to operate a lots better now. Lots of things can cause inconsistency.

The older long cut IMR 4198 is very difficult to meter, but works well in my 223

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joeb33050 posted this 01 February 2017

Joe,

Today I was weighing powder charges and discovered that my Lyman beam scale was not operating smoothly. So I dusted scales off and cleaned pivot area well. Scales seem to operate a lots better now. Lots of things can cause inconsistency.

The older long cut IMR 4198 is very difficult to meter, but works well in my 223

OU;

I keep checking my RCBS 10-10, Pact electronic and Lyman 55s. Can't find a problem. AND, jacketed bullets loaded with same scale and measure shoot nicely. I wish it was the scale or measure.

joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 01 February 2017

2/1/17 SHILEN BARREL 22-250 ON M10 SAVAGE

NEW LOT OF 225646M, 7.5/TITEGROUP, 9 SHOTS IN 11 5/8"(10TH SHOT ???)

MIDWAY DOGTOWN 55 GR, 8/SR4756, 1.7", 1.4", 1.7", 1.075"

???

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OU812 posted this 01 February 2017

Joe, you won't change results unless you make a major change in something and evaluate just that change. Try something completely different that works for me and is something that you show no interest in.. Get a Hoppe's BoreSnake and use nothing else for the test, Pull it through 3 times on a dirty rifle before you start a string, then pull it through once every 5 shots, Use nothing on the BoreSnake, no solvents or oil. Just use it clean and dry.  This routine maintains relatively constant bore condition. It is not immaculate and that is the point.  Your starting from an immaculate bore leaves a bore that quickly changes. The changing bore conditions from starting with an immaculate bore stinks for maintaining relative consistent bore condition.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/260083/hoppes-boresnake-bore-cleaner-rifle

 

Gary

 

Gary's method works IF the barrel is not too fouled to begin with. I have seen hard fouling that can be very difficult to remove. I would scrub the bore with solvent and brass or bronze wool wrapped around brass brush. Then coat the barrel with Alox before firing. It may take three fouling shots before accuracy comes in. Then do Gary's cleaning method.

That big case will hold more Tite Group without pressures being too high...I would not be afraid to go up to 9 grains.

The bullet must align in throat strait to shoot strait and without wobble.

Have you tried sizing to .227 

I hope your gas checks are staying on during flight. The last batch of Gator checks I purchased are .001 thicker than Hornadays and fit all my .224 bullets without flaring.

What is the rate of twist again? 1/14?

I do not have a lot of experience with your Lyman bullet...seems the best I could do with that bullet was about 4” groups.

Too many things to list that would maybe help or improve accuracy.

 

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joeb33050 posted this 02 February 2017

Gary's method works IF the barrel is not too fouled to begin with. I have seen hard fouling that can be very difficult to remove. I would scrub the bore with solvent and brass or bronze wool wrapped around brass brush. Then coat the barrel with Alox before firing. It may take three fouling shots before accuracy comes in. Then do Gary's cleaning method.

That big case will hold more Tite Group without pressures being too high...I would not be afraid to go up to 9 grains.

The bullet must align in throat strait to shoot strait and without wobble.

Have you tried sizing to .227 

I hope your gas checks are staying on during flight. The last batch of Gator checks I purchased are .001 thicker than Hornadays and fit all my .224 bullets without flaring.

What is the rate of twist again? 1/14?

I do not have a lot of experience with your Lyman bullet...seems the best I could do with that bullet was about 4” groups.

Too many things to list that would maybe help or improve accuracy.

 After 10 cast and 29 jacketed bullets, three Hoppes #9 patches, then nylon brushing with #9, the 4th patch was clean. Wait, clean #9 patch, brush again, clean patch. Overnight after #9 patch, this morning, clean patch. No green/blue, no copper fouling. Shooting 9 shots into 11 5/8” at 100 yards isn't about barrel fouling. The poor jacketed performance might be due to poor bullet quality and lotsa mirage and wind, but it ain't about stability in this 9” twist Shilen barrel.

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SierraHunter posted this 02 February 2017

How about humidity and temperature?

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OU812 posted this 02 February 2017

I also have a new chrome moly 9” twist Shilen barrel threaded to another Remington 700 rifle. This short chambered barrel was chambered using a PTG  NATO reamer. During break in I was shooting 1/2” groups with Sierra 69 grain match bullets.

I have not taken up much time shooting cast with it. I did test the NOE 227-80-SP briefly, but I had to size down the bore ride section to get the longer bullet to chamber more easily...I was shooting 1 1/2” groups using 45-45-10 tumble lube. I am sure it is capable of grouping better.

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joeb33050 posted this 04 February 2017

Joe:  I have a lot of 22 Lee Bators (55gr.) and 60gr. Saeco bullets cast up if you need some to give a try in the new barrel please feel free to PM me for samples.  Gp

GP;

The only thing common element to huge groups, (that I can see), is MY cast bullets. So I loaded some of your Bators, 60 gr Saecos and 227-80s, a dozen or so each, to see if that's going to get the Shilen barrel shooting groups. I'm getting stumped here, the guns shoot jacketed low velocity fine, cast with everything else the same and basketball sized groups.

I'll try casting with a softer alloy when I get the softer metal to tone down the lino.

joe b.

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