MORE TWIST

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  • Last Post 22 August 2018
joeb33050 posted this 30 July 2018

Just back from the range, M110 Savage barrel, Hornady 55 gr fmjbt cannelure;

7/Titegroup, 5 shots in 7"

8.5/Titegroup, 5 shots in 4.75"

and NO tipping.

This twist/stability business gets stranger the more I shoot. 

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RicinYakima posted this 03 August 2018

Joeb is looking for "Why". More power to him, and for me it is fun to read his trials and tribulations. For us it is the "exploring" as much as the finding.

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Scearcy posted this 04 August 2018

Exactly! So why are we comparing the two? Different game, different rules, no conclusion to be drawn. I agree with pati that it is very doubtful that the CBA has languished in ignorance while the rest of the worlds shooting sports have continued to progress.

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pat i. posted this 22 August 2018

Cast works just like jacketed. Slow twist shorter bullet. I saw you ordered a 14 twist Douglas barrel. I always had good luck with the RCBS 165 Sil in a 1 1/2 degree included angle throat. If I remember right it's 1.020. When I made my taper die I switched to a LBT spitzer the same length as the Sil bullet. I know you're just saying weight as a replacement for length but forget all about weight, length is what matters. In fact I've wished for a long time mold manufacturers that don't provide a print would drop weight and replace it with length although RCBS 1.020 Sil doesn't sound as cool.

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pat i. posted this 02 August 2018

One of the great mysteries of cast bullets to some people is why they don't shoot as well as a good jacketed bullet let alone a premium BR jacketed bullet made in a good die with J4 jackets. Besides that I look at it as just making conversation.

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frnkeore posted this 22 August 2018

I posted the above, in responding to Pat I's post. I had missed this thread, as it started when I was in Spokane, attending a 2 week shoot.

I've read most of it now and will hopefully answer some of the questions.

1. The 25 ring in a ASSRA, 200 yard target is 1.50". Most 250's create a 1 - 1.25" group. Our 5 shot group record is .275 and 10 shot, .924. I have seen 10 shot score groups, in the 7/8 range but, they don't qualify for group records, of course.

2. There are basically three reasons that ASSRA and ISSA scores have improved in the last 15 years. The first is barrel design and quality. Although there have been other barrels that have shot 250's, Douglas and Pac-Nor being two, the RKS, choked, gain twist, far exceeds them. BTW, Dale Reynolds, shot four 250's and one 249 (1249/1250) in a ISSA , 50 shot match, with a Pac-Nor barrel but, neither he or no one else has matched or exceed it but, there are a lot of ISSA, 50 shot scores in the 1240 - 1245 range at the annual match at Raton, NM.

1. Barrel

2. Shooter skill and attention to detail and wind reading ability

3. Breech seated bullet design

Our bullets won't help CBA fixed ammo guys improve their scores though.

To answer JoeB's, bullet fit question. The taper of the bullet, usually on the front driving band or bands, must fit the taper of the throat and if it has a bore riding portion, it must contact the lands of the rifling as a basic start. It will help, if the base band fits any freebore that the chamber has, while still being in contact with the ID of the case mouth and that case mouth be chamber size on the OD, to to guide the bullet to battery.

Frank

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 30 July 2018

... didja happen to shoot a few " known good " loads ...    my tikka/ithica 308 shoots only about 6 moa with gov't bullets that look just like those hornadys ....

ken

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Scearcy posted this 30 July 2018

Unfortunately stable bullets do not guarantee accuracy. I have never had much luck with the Hornady FMJ but do have to agree that a 7" group is noteworthy.  Keep going! It is nice to see data.

I just opened my 5th box of 6MM gas checks since I bought my first 243 Thanksgiving week of 2016. Since my first "accurate" 243 has a 260 mm twist, I spent the first 15 months trying to find a way around the basic principles of stabilizing a bullet. I learned alot but I was not able to answer all of my questions. I was also unable to circumvent the mathematics. I have 5 different molds which produce bullets which fit one or more of my current crop of 243s. Only 2 or 3 combos produce good accuracy and in all cases the twist rate suits the bullet. Velocity, within our normal cast bullet ranges, never helped stabilize a bullet as much as I expected (hoped).

Jim

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OU812 posted this 30 July 2018

The Sierra 52 grain match bullets shoot well in my 223 rifles using Titegroup. I also like using Moly coating to reduce copper fouling.

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Scearcy posted this 31 July 2018

Hornady 50 gr Vmax seem to shoot well in every rifle also.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 31 July 2018

i did not mean to disparage hornady in my above query ... in fact, me here and my rifles mostly favor hornady bullets.   i was just wandering that perhaps hornady ... and others .... pay a little less attention to bullets meant for bulk use by the pray and spray foks.   i once had a box of perfect-looking mj 224 bullets that shot 6 moa in my remmy 222 that otherwise never shot over 1.5 moa in it's life.

ken

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R. Dupraz posted this 31 July 2018

Nothing wrong with Hornady. However, used to be when I was after serious accuracy with jacketed, Sierra got the nod.

Don't know how it is any more as I haven't bought any jacketed for some time now. 

 

R. 

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John Carlson posted this 31 July 2018

Hornady, Sierra, and the old wide mouth Speer 52gr hollow points have all shot well in my 223s but when I want serious accuracy I go to Berger.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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joeb33050 posted this 31 July 2018

... didja happen to shoot a few " known good " loads ...    my tikka/ithica 308 shoots only about 6 moa with gov't bullets that look just like those hornadys ....

ken

No, but I did shoot some 40 gr Nosler hp, groups were fair. I haven't shot this barrel much, and will sell it. The 22" sporter bbls like this don't shoot as well as the 26" heavy bbls.

I see big groups/no tipping; small groups tipping and sideways, I can't get a handle on this.

 

Anyhow, the idea was to see if jacketed shoot small groups with cast powder and no fiddling = weighing powder, fretting about oal, turning necks, weighing/sorting cases. orienting anything. They do.

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RicinYakima posted this 31 July 2018

So, are we at the hypothesis that stronger bullets are more accurate than weaker bullets yet?

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Brodie posted this 31 July 2018

 I think that the hypothesis is more :  twist and velocity how fast to best stabilize the bullet.

B.E.Brickey

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joeb33050 posted this 02 August 2018

So, are we at the hypothesis that stronger bullets are more accurate than weaker bullets yet?

All I* know is that JB groups < CB groups, mott.

 

CBA NM groups haven’t changed size in 20 years.

 

Is it easy to shoot jacketed .22 bullets In the 5-shot 100-yard average between .5” and 1” area, using a CB Powder, (Titegroup), and charge?

 

Yes. I have done it and can do it.

 

M110 Savage barrel, 12” twist

 

Hornady 55 gr fmjbt cannelure;

 

7/Titegroup, 5 shots in 7"

 

8.5/Titegroup, 5 shots in 4.75"

 

and NO tipping.

 

I shot some 40 gr Nosler hp, groups were fair/poor.

 

Probably barrel and twist at fault.

 

8/2/18, Shilen 9” twist 22-250, group size “

 

Nosler 40 gr., 7 Titegroup , .7, .8, .9, 1.1; avg. .875//8.5 Titegroup, .6, 1.1, .8; avg. .800

 

99% of CB shooters would be delighted to shoot these groups.

 

Hornady 55 gr fmjbt cannelure; 1.5, 1.475, 1.475; avg. 1.483//8.5 Titegroup, 1.1, 1.875, 1.075; avg. 1.35

 

The Hornady bullets are inexpensive, weighed, 55 +/-.1 gr selected, others sighters.

 

So, not all jacketed bullets shoot accurately; something makes them inaccurate.

 

What is it?

 

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joeb33050 posted this 02 August 2018

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pat i. posted this 02 August 2018

Joe just as an aside have the groups shot at the Super Shoot improved that much in the last 20 years? I know some of the records are pretty old. Have there been major improvements in ASSRA groups in the last 20 years? Have Rimfire shooters made great strides? High Power? BPCR? Air Guns (probably)? All the other shooting sports? It's all about the bullet and some just aren't good. A good cast bullet will out perform a poor jacketed bullet but a good jacketed bullet will run rings around the best cast bullet. Simple as that.

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beagle6 posted this 02 August 2018

Why is all this on the CAST BULLET forum? If I was interested in jacketed bullets, I would be on a different web site.

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Scearcy posted this 02 August 2018

+1

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