What's the priority in making an accurate cast handload?

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  • Last Post 30 August 2018
durant7 posted this 21 March 2015

New here but I have an itch to pursue better accuracy at 200y with my one CF gun and thinking it might be educational to shoot a few CBA benchrest matches this summer.  Not to be competitive but to learn and if the bug bights.....

I have a bunch of moulds but my 30 cal list is short, an Ideal 31141.  My bullets have been good enough to be very competitive in CLA (Metallic Silhouette Cowboy Lever Action) but there are times I wonder what went wrong when IMO I had a good break.  Sadly, a 200y range is a 2 hour drive and winter in NH this year has limited outside activity.  So here I am doing what I should NOT be doing, sitting inside, warm, on the computer.

As I do research, there are so many variables that lay ahead, what do I focus on if I want to develop a better 200y hand loaded bullet for a CBA match? 31141 has a BC of .220.  A low value and higher is better.  Browse FleaBay and find other .311 mould such as a 311299 which has a BC of .377.  The bullet can, I would assume, be single loaded to avoid magazine detonation, and would bore ride with correct LOA.  Would this be the first best building block in the foundation of a cast bullet with higher accuracy potential? But, is this the right direction to take?  Yet another mould?  There are so many other variables to explore first with the .31141.  What's first?  I have read so much my head hurts.  Here are a few.<>Manage alloy better, put 20 ingots and melt them to the IDENTICAL alloy, and then pour them to ensure I have one variable eliminated.  Today I use ingots which I have created by collecting range lead to WW to whatever I find and now 300 ingots stashed away.<>Get a higher BC mould.  Higher is better at 200y from a 30-30.<>Using the pencil method, use the hardest ingots I can collect from my stash and melt them to one alloy.  I don't own a hardness tester...read enough on that.<>Sizing.  I have sizers from .310 to .313. yet my current 300 load ready bullet inventory is all sized to .311 and GC.  Bullet drops at .312 to .313 and is not round or perfectly aliened...and I have worked hard on that.  I am told Lyman moulds are not perfect.<>Crimp.  Taper, factory, or don't crimp at all.  Too much crimp negatively impacts the driving bands.  More crimp assures more consistent powder burn.<>Neck tension & turning...sorry, not going there for a 30-30.<>Case prep.  That is easy.  All the same headstamp, trimmed, flash hole deburred, weight sorted...I feel I have that in the bag on a RP case.  Of course a few bags of Factory New...defeats my interest to be frugal but I understand penny wise, pound foolish.<>Powders...Unique has worked, I own it...seems like a slippery slope to start buying a pound of 5+ powders to experiment...laddering each...mix in the above variables...my head hurts....to truly change one variable at a time the testing would be beyond what I have time to accomplish. I find a classic case of analysis paralysis and I spend more time thinking about it and less time doing it.  What would the accuracy veterans work on first?  Should the buy bight, a 30 cal bolt gun could take my efforts with the 30-30 to the next level next year.

JD in NH

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M3 Mitch posted this 30 August 2018

Given the high cost of new factory production molds from Lyman, RCBS or Saeco, etc., and considering even with careful selection that chances are no better than 50-50 that your cherry-cut mass-production mold will cast a bullet which will “fit” without resorting to bumping, Beagling or extensive alloy experimentation. By the time you go through the frustration of trying several production molds without success, you will be money ahead with much less time spent in frustration by simply doing your due diligence, asking questions and taking advantage of the expertise of others to make a good choice and do it correctly the first time.
Ed is 100% right here, as usual.  I have lucked out with serial production molds, mostly in terms of molds that cast a bit bigger diameter than I really need, and have done some OK shooting with them.  I have a lot of Lyman and RCBS molds, I'm not going to throw them out.  But I have from time to time had problems that I have learned on here are very likely due to undersized bullets.  The custom makers, many of them are CBA members, some post on here - these guys can make a mold that will fit YOUR gun, exactly right, if you use the alloy you specify when you order the mold.  A lot of us shoot cast to shoot more for the same "pot" of money (guilty) and are kind of natural tightwads (guilty).  A custom mold is one place it's worth it to "splurge".

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JSH posted this 10 July 2017

I myself have enough faith in my CB's to not feel handicapped by using them against jacketed. At least out to about 300m.

Your 44 load looks to be working well.

This an exceptional thread a lot of input that I find very useful. Jeff

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durant7 posted this 09 July 2017

Since so many folks have helped me in my quest for consistently accurate 200m cast hand loads I thought I would provide an update.  The key update is, I should spend more time practicing on the firing line and less time fooling around in the reloading/casting room.  Hard to admit but true.  I managed a 58/80 for CLA.  Mostly nerves on the line.  I even missed a few pigs which is never a fault of bullet or loading.  As for energy and accuracy at 200m.  I have currently settled on my 31141 GC bullet sized to .311" over 21g of 4198, neck sized only, not a piece FL sized in over a year.  I rotate through about 550 pcs of RP brass sorted by length.  Reload the short stuff first to help them get longer. (I am re thinking my brass mgt)  I tested 22 and 23g of 4198 and my group started to open up.  My brief experiment with 3031 showed promise but was inconsistent with 28g.  This could have been me.  I travel a lot for work and time was not on my side.   The load of 21g of 4198 worked well at Consolidated Sportsman in Lycoming County PA.  Everything I hit fell over unlike the prior year using 19g of 4198.  Out of the 13/20 rams I hit at Bradford PA match, I did manage to ring one.  Hit low rear shank and it just stood there.  Odd.  I had already sunk my own ship so I could not get that upset about it.  

Although not covered previously in this thread, I shoot a 44 Rem Mag for PCCLA using a 429215 mould sized .430" over 5.9g of Titegroup.  Nerves had settled a little by the 2nd day and I managed 18/20 rams.  16/20 turkeys.  So the bullet works, it is the dummy behind the trigger as I managed only 63/80 claiming 2nd AAA, won in a shoot off.  My home made bullet and load found its turkey the first time and that was rewarding as a competitive shooter. Heck, by the afternoon of day 3, when all hope was gone, I managed 35/40 with my 39A.  Go figure!

There is a custom mould in my future someday for the 30-30.  The general consensus on the line is that for big matches with 50+ shooters, one can't afford to take a risk with cast bullets and just use jacketed.  The aggregate winner award did go to a cast bullet shooter so that gives me hope.

Here is an image using my 44 load.  Wanted a good test of 10 shots to confirm all was normal before I loaded 250 of them.  4" wide by 2.25" high.  Lever gun, Iron sights, some wind, I am satisfied and I don't bother with a GC.

 

44 Rem Mag at 100y

 

 

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giorgio the slim one posted this 30 June 2017

A well designed  custom gang mold is the cheapest way of getting accuracy .  Years ago I sold  my collection of mass produced iron molds and got LBT gang molds . With good results .

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JSH posted this 30 June 2017

I use the RCBS 165 in my 30-20's and 30-30. I very seldom ring a ram when properly set. Some times they fall forward.

Each range has its own things to consider. When IHMSA was still running pretty strong, I was shooting 3-4 matches a month 8 months out of the year. There were some ranges that had their issues. I shot a fair bit of FP with the 22 hornet and 55 gr bullets. Ring 8-9 out of 10 rams and one will change up. This my going to the 30-20 for a lot of my IHMSA shooting.

If the OP is shooting full footed or some Rams that have years of abuse, he may have to to the heavy for sure. I have seen auto reset BB Rams taken over with a 10" 221 fireball and a 55 grain bullet. I told those Yankees they had better not venture west of the Mississippi with those cap guns, as they will be unhappy with hand set target in this part of the world.

When rams fail to fall with good hits you will hear "more powder bigger bullet" lol. Jeff

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shootcast posted this 27 June 2017

Don't worry about more energy. Yes more is better, to a point. If the rams are being set correctly they will fall with moderate loads. If you can make out the photo I used two pistols in this match. 32-20 Win. Load was only about 1400fps. With RCBS 165 sil. Bullet. The 30-30 load was 4198@ 20.5 gr.  Same bullet. I haven't shot in a few years but also used a 190 gr. Cast in my 30-30 loaded with Herco. Used it on Rams only. My notes say all rams hit went down. A friend used a XP100 -223 hand loaded with jackets. Seldom missed but with even heaviest bullets would ring rams. He aimed for the horn on the rams head. Hitting them high gives more leverage to knock them over. 

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shootcast posted this 27 June 2017

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JSH posted this 05 March 2017

Wow! I had not visited this thread for quite a while. I have not shot my 30-30 past about 300 yards. Pistol I stayed with SR 4759. In a rifle I had been using AA2520 and H335 with good luck. Did your partial neck sizing work out for you? FYI, I hate to bring it up, but I will. I see you going down the exact same road I did years back. I searched the net far and wide for used molds, priced cheap. Well I got what I was searching for, a bunch of iron block molds or cheap. I have a fair bunch of money in them, yet they drop in various sizes with limited usability in most guns. As I have an empty nest and no house payments, it has loosened up some funds. I find myself replacing molds with customs that drop,fit and shoot way better than the molds made for the masses. I was told many moons ago at a younger age, cry once.

However, if you stay on the same track you are on, don't skip overa mold you already have, as it may drop larger or smaller than the previous one. Thus working better for said application.

I find my mold drawer over flowing, by being filled with NOE, accurate and MIHA molds. I need to clean it out and reinvest.

FYI to those posting,reading and following this thread an Excellent job by ALL. Jeff

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durant7 posted this 04 March 2017

12F outside and howling.  Not the day to test my new load over a chronograph.  I am tying not to run out and buy the Lee C-312-185-1R mould if my current load of 3031 repeats accuracy and records enough muzzle velocity to suggest a knock down in the spring of those stubborn PA rams.  Ed is right, “Bullet fit is everything” and we lost some useful images when we migrated to the new forum.  I will include a re-post of the pound cast which introduced the issue I have not addressed which is longer, like 2.100” long 30-30 brass.  Best plan is to pick up 50 pcs of Starline 38-55 2.125” brass and size them down.  I did 5 pcs and it is work.  Good project for a day like today.

The distance from the end of the brass to the “corner” of the “forcing cone” when the diameter begins to transition to the bore is 2.105".  Groove is .310” and bore is .3025".  The length of the junk brass case I used is 2.010” vs. the regular 2.030"

 

As for the so far unsuccessful effort to make the heavier RCBS 30-180FN which drops at 190g, there are some measurements.  The photo suggest some alloy swing.  I tried to have one lot but I sinned and tossed in some other “stuff” and if it matters, the ratio of tin to lead looks a bit different.  Let's look at measurements and maybe someone has a Lee they can measure for me.  Lyman 31141 vs. 30-180FN

 

Weight:  177g vs. 190g
Length   0.974 vs 1.027"
nose above first “band": .299” vs .301"
Band 1: .304” vs .309"
Band 2: .311” vs. .307"
Band 3: .312” vs. .308"
Band 4: .312” vs. .308"
Band 5:  na  vs. .307"

The photo is of a Beagled 30-180 so that explains the mould seam a bit.  30-180FN on right.

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papertrl posted this 03 March 2017

....303 British ...  I use 30 grs. of 4064, RL15 or Varget with NOE version of .314299...

Ed, I'm curious about the velocity of that combination. I shoot the NOE 316299 in my 303B, but hadn't considered 4064. 

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Ed Harris posted this 02 March 2017

In transition to the new web site, some of the old photos and drawings were lost.  Here is the WRA Co. drawing which my .303 British reamer was ground to.  Overall a highly successful effort with either cast or jacketed.  I use 30 grs. of 4064, RL15 or Varget with NOE version of .314299 and 40 grs. with Sierra .311: 174-grain MatchKing.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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shootcast posted this 28 February 2017

I didn't read every response but you have many. John Alexander's, what not to worry about is very good advice. Judging from your 200 yard 3 inch 5 shot group you should feel pretty good. I also enjoy shooting my 30-30 ( T/C carbine ) Remember you are shooting a lever hunting rifle. Not something to expect one hole groups.  You are doing very well. I can't give you the tech end you have already received. Some days are diamonds some days are stones. Cast bullets seem to have a mind of there own. You are narrowing down what works. Have fun and keep shooting.

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durant7 posted this 26 February 2017

Bushranch,  a single shot 30-30, now that would be a fun gun to play with!  Buying 32-40 to make 30-30 when others are making short 32-40 from 30-30 based on my quick Google of the topic.  If I had a single shot and was doing serious paper work, I would be trying it sooner.  John, yet another mould  True, short money.  I will do some measurements to confirm it will fit.  Google search suggest some can't make it fit.  

I spent a chunk of time yesterday cleaning up the Beagled 30-180FN and put it away. Getting that cooked adhesive off was a task. That mould has been a frustration!  Some initial targets were good but I could not duplicate as hard as I tried.  Today I will load up some more 3031 in hopes for a warm day.  We were 60F yesterday and today it is 26F and WINDY!  All the melt is now ice.  Yesterday was a TEASE!

The photo below is a quandary.  As I tested a number of powders, Win 760 is the slowest burn rate I own.  It is also the most vintage powder but it smells fine.  I tried 33g which seemed like the normal place to start.  It did not do well at 100y relative to IMR4198 so I stopped any further testing of 760.  748 is the right powder for 30-30 I read.   But the 760 had this interesting blow-by of lube.  I don't crimp.  I assume there are some internal ballistics going on here with a slow burn rate that I don't understand.  Nothing important or dire.  I am more curious if it should be telling me something. All four I fired were identical.  All other powders that day did not do this.

 

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bushranch posted this 26 February 2017

Making long neck 30-30 cases. I have spent time on this and what I did learn is using the 32-40 case is far better than the 38-55 case. With the 38-55 case one side of the neck is thicker and they take more work to make. No such problem with the 32-40 .

32-40's take a bit of doing as the first shot may shorten them too much as they expand to fill the 30-30 chamber. To get by this I left the case long and lightly crimped the excess in the bullet lube groove so it would chamber. I just shot the normal CB target load and it shot a good two hundred yard group. The case neck was left long enough to trim to the desired length. Rifle is a 30-30 Hi Wall. 

FWIW

 

 

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onondaga posted this 25 February 2017

 Durant,

If you can load the RCBS 30-180FN in your 30-30, an inexpensive mold that casts larger in diameter that you should consider is the Lee C-312-185-1R.. It is a nice heavy bullet for knocking down steel, it will easily size/check to the size you need and for me it is my most accurate shooting bullet in 30 caliber:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/562844/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-c312-185-1r-303-british-312-diameter-185-grain-1-ogive-radius-gas-check

Also consider Hodgdon H4895 powder for your application. It is recommended by Hodgdon for it's soft start pressure curve for cast bullets and yields excellent accuracy in the 30-30 with cast bullets.

Gary

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durant7 posted this 25 February 2017

Believe it or not, I continue to work through the quest for accuracy as well as power for the 200 Yard Rams in the sport of CLA.   

I abandoned my quest for longer 30-30 brass and just live with 2.030” case length.  I still have my 38-55 ready for testing but never did try them.  It just did not seem practical as the solution would be to buy the long Starline 38-55 and turn them into 30-30, anneal, etc etc.  I wrote it off as more $$ and effort than I was willing to pursue for a lever gun at this time.

I did wise up to the math behind the external ballistics at 200 yards.  I was slow to pick this up but rams continued to stand even when hit dead center.  The worst place to hit them!  Experts in the sport say you need a 1.2 Momentum value to knock over a ram.  My 19g of 4198 gave me .801.  Accurate yes, power, no.  In this sport they have to fall down to count.  A new challenge for this new caster and hand loader.  

I had tried the 311299 but that is simply TOO long.  Greenhill says it will stabalize but I had too much of the bullet dangling in the case below the neck.  I had read this was a no no.  I have also recently read this is ok.  Testing for another day as I only just recently saw the opinion about having one's GC below the neck as being non critical to accuracy in the 243 from scratch post.

I did pick up a RCBS 30-180FN mould.  Pretty.  Nice bullet visually but too damn small.  Mine is a .308".  The base band above the GC is .307”  I have Beagled it but to no benefit to accuracy which does not make sense.  I figured if I kept trying powder, Beagling, I would get somewhere.  So far, I have highly non repeatable, inconsistent results which could be me I guess.  But the “control", the 31141 with 19g of 4198, still grouped well.

That is one learning I would emphasize for other new casters/reloaders like me.  Always bring 5 or 10 of what you know works when doing load development.  And at the end of the session, shoot them and see if you get what you expect.  There are weather variables, light, wind, temp, mood, hold, patience, etc etc that can all affect results down range.  As a rule I always bring 5 rounds of my control to confirm the shooter is doing his job.

So, if the 31141 is still king of the hill at 175g and the RCBS at 190g is not an option, how do I get more energy imparted to the ram at 200?  I studied the 49th ed. and decided although 4198 may be the accuracy load, it is not the fastest load.  I decided it was time, to my great disgust, to buy yet one more new powder to the reloading room.  I now see why you guys have so many different powders.  IMR 4064 was a flop.  IMR 4198 was a winner.  But now I was faced with what to try next.  Win 748 and IMR 3031 was on my wish list.  Gun shop only had 3031 so my decision was made for me.  

Did some reading and decided to start with 28g of 3031 to get to the knock down energy I wanted with the 31141.  That may have been careless but the Hodgdon goes up to 29.2g for a 170g Sierra.  Bottom line, it grouped well at 200 yards with a 3” group.  I need to load them up again and see if it is repeatable.  I have had lucky targets which never again could be duplicated.  I hope this time it can.  I don't own my own chronograph yet.  I can see that is in my future.  But, if I get 2,020 at the muzzle that would give me momentum factor of 1.197.  More testing in 2+ feet of snow which today is quickly melting!

This is my first post in the new forum.  Pls excuse an errors.  Sorry the pics in the original post are gone.

Above is a 200y target with scope on my 336CB using 28g of 3031 which is moving faster (more energy) than 4198 AND accurate.  Bullet is a SC Ideal 31141 drops at 175g GC & sized to .311 with Blue Angel.

 

 

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durant7 posted this 06 March 2016

Here is the weekend update.  My trimmer arrived so I took my 38-55 brass down to the shortest of the 5 I had sized to 30-30.  That is about 2.065".  A bit shorter than the target of 2.080".  Oh well.  They are sized, expanded, annealed, trimmed, de-burred, cleaned and then loaded.  What an exercise!  

My pound cast, to the very beginning of the “forcing cone” is 2.100".  2.080” was my conservative length objective.

Then I decided to check what the manuals said.  Hornady 4th Ed says TTL of 2.093”  Yup!  4th Ed, first printing, Vol 1 was printed in 1991.   My new Sierra 5th Ed. says 2.029".    I double checked and that is what the old Hornady says.  Too bad you can't find brass that long!  Lyman 49th Ed. publishes 2.028” yet the drawing shows 2.039".  SAAMI shows 2.0395 -.0200.  I bet the Hornady is a typo and they meant to type in 2.039” to line up with SAAMI.

The flaw in my experiment is that all things are unchanged from my short brass with one exception.  My most accurate recipe at this time uses neck sized brass.  This 38-55 brass is FL sized so....they will need to be shot once before I really can compare to my std 30-30 brass.

I know I am slow.  But I am not giving up.  I think I am onto something using 4198 and .311 bullets.  I will someday drop perfect looking bullets but that will come.  Might just be a custom mould.  I just signed up for 5 year membership with CBA.  I should have it figured out by then.

Image, the left is Winchester Factory 38-55 brass where you can see that is left of the stake crimp.  We'll see what happens after the first firing.

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jeff houck posted this 28 February 2016

I would run both my mold and metal hotter. I cast my gang molds at 850 deg. F. and I use two molds to allow the molds time to cool of and solidify. The mold and sprue stay liquid while I move it over to my hot plate and set it down. The jiggling of the mold while everything is still molten allows for a better fill out and allows the air to escape to avoid voids. I like everything to be just under the frosting temperature when using an antimony blended metal.

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durant7 posted this 27 February 2016

The quest continues. Here are the updates. 

I was kindly given some 38-55 brass and I have sized 5 to 30-30.  After a good amount of reading I was nervous on the first one but was able to skip a 32 Special step and just go to 30-30 FL die.  Then I expanded and annealed.  Then my make shift case trimming system ate my first one.  ARGH!  It was one of those moments you put the tools down and walk away and do something else.  I am going to pickup a Forster on eBay I hope.  Over a RCBS based on what I read.

Next.  I have spent a few weekends with my new MYPIN PID which is covered on other posts.  I know more about 3 wire RTD type thermocouples vs. 2 wire traditional thermocouples.....and still, I think my RTD is cooked as it now says 600F when at room temps.  I don't have a true thermometer so....I am pushing the PID to the temp that gives me the best looking bullets for now until I get a better temp input device.  Sigh.

But, have a look at these bullets!  I use a 10 LB Lee bottom pour pot.  Ok, I am starting off.  My alloy was mixed, fluxed, homogenized in dutch oven over a burner.  So I am making progress.  I fear I may still have ZINC in my last batch so I will have to do the sulfur thing.  I get dark gray surface that is not as shiny smooth as the rest of the bullet.

What is going on here?  An otherwise good batch of bullets with this in the bullet?  I have thought this to be the little cooled drop on the the bottom of the bottom pour.  I always knock that off with the sprue plate as I put in the mould for a fill.  I get these...and smaller usually in my bullets which looks as if the mould is not hot.  Any veteran casters out there have any advice?  I appreciate that physical beauty does not an accurate bullet make but....after PID, alloy mgt, etc etc etc I wish I could make a bunch of bullets that all looked good too.

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Mike H posted this 12 February 2016

LMG,Thanks for hopping in with your experience,much better than my guessing.I wonder if anyone has bothered to re barrel a lever action,with a better chamber.Mike.

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