Defense Choices

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Last Post 12 December 2019

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Bisley posted this 11 February 2016

I inherited a 2-inch Smith and Wesson 5-round J-frame in .38 special. It feels too small for my hand but my wife loves it. When it warms up we're going to take range safety classes and get some firing time. Thankfully, this is not an area where you have to carry a gun, although I respect those members of my church who do and I understand their concern.

I stand 6'2” at 185-195 pounds depending on the season. I need something practical.

I see where Ruger has introduced a Lightweight Commander Model, 28 ounces, and I am told it will fit, feed, fire and function with any ammunition you give it including handloads. They are at the top of my price range (800.00 by the time fees and taxes are paid). Remington's Commander model is even pricier and heavier (Closer to four figures). I am not finding many used models of these guns at Bud's Gun Shop, or Gunbroker. What I am finding are Para-ordnance commander-size midels -- church members who have experience told me they jammed with even Winchester White Box .45s. I also see Rangemaster Champion (4” barrel) by The Springfield Armory.

I find used Springfields and Paras listed quite a bit. I would be willing to get a used gun, and have a gunsmith tune it to make it reliable. Do any other members and fellow casters have experience with these guns and what can you guys tell me?

Is the grip size on a J-frame Smith an issue (This is the least expensive option)? Does the Ruger 1911 Lightweight commander really eat everything? What about the Remingtons? They seem heavy, and are the most expensive. Springfield Rangemaster champion and Para-ordnance -- can they take gunsmith tuning to make them reliable and what are the most common problems?

I know that's a lot, but I have time to choose.

Bisley

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Tom G posted this 09 December 2019

Bisley,

As a retired Sheriiff Sgt. and NRA certified LE firearms instructor, I've had the opportunity to carry lots of different handguns in my career. Also seen firsthand the results of different gunshot wounds.

Firstly, you need to carry a gun that has enough knockdown power to disable a determined assailant with one or at the most, two hits.

Secondly, you need to have a firearm available at all times if possible. That means you have to be ready to deal with a trade off between firepower and concealability. If you can stand the weight and bulk, the best gun in my estimation is a 45 auto or one of the new tupperware guns in 40 S&W.

If you carry a gun much you will soon tire of the weight and bulk of a big gun and probably leave it in the drawer where it won't do you any good if the S--T hits the fan. So, you will need to come to some sort of compromise. I'm 77 yrs old now and as I get older, the size of the guns I carry for protection get smaller and smaller.That doesn't mean that they are less lethal. I've carried a 44 bulldog, a really nice 3 inch Chief's Special in airweight and lately, the best one I've ever carried, a Ruger LC9 light weight single action 9 mm, polimer frame gun with a 3.1 ich barrel. This gun is small enough to carry it in a pocket holster in your pants pocket. It can also be carried inside the waistband and on the outside in a conventional holster. My favorite holster is a pancake holster made by Crossbreed.

The sights on this gun are very small so I replaced them with a set of fiber optic sights that really stand out in the daylight. They also have tritium inserts that show up in the dark. So, as you can see, it can be used in just about any condition you might run into. Even if you can see your sights, I would caution about shooting in the dark. Before you shoot, you must be sure of what you are shooting at.

The 9 mm round is arguably not the most powerful manstopper out there but with the advent of the new bullets that will expand readily, this cartridge has gained a large following in both the law enforcement and civilian sector. My choice of carry ammo is the Hornady Critical Defense 115 gr. FTX round. Note: this ammo is in chrome plated cases so the they don't corrode or deteriorate while you are carrying them. I've tested this round in my LC9 and it works flawlessly. This little gun also runs with just about anything else I shoot through it. I've probably fired way in excess of a thousand cast handloads in it without any problems.

The thing that sold me on this gun was the quality of the trigger pull. The Ruger engineers really hit a home run with this trigger design. It is light and smooth and has the long travel of most all semi auto striker fired guns. But, it is easy to shoot and very accurate. I've fired it a lot on many IDPA and USPSA courses and the performance of this gun never fails to amaze the other shooters. This gun even feeds the Lee 358-105 SWC bullet in wheel weights. The model I have is the Pro model with no manual safety.. It does have a trigger operated safety with the little bar sticking out of the center of the trigger shoe. I think it is safe as long as you keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire. Near the end of my LE career, we went to Glocks with the safe trigger and I carried a Glock 19 for about 5 years without incident. My theory is that in a stressful situation like a gunfight, I don't want to be fumbling around taking a safety off when all I have to do is point and shoot. I shoot this gun at least monthly to stay in practice with it but I'm not against someone who rarely shoots and practices having a manual safety. In fact, I'd feel safer around them if they did!!

Lately i've only seen this model for sale in a stripped down version at very low prices but I still think it is a good viable compromise gun to carry. It can always have a good set of Tritium/fiber optic sights installed to make it a real good carry gun. I would definitely recommend you take a look at this gun and try the trigger before you make your final choice.

Just my two cents worth......

Tom Gray

Life member of CBA and NRA

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Ed Harris posted this 12 December 2019

Another wrinkle I learned on using S&W snubs with the round-butt service stocks and the Tyler T-grip, is to add a couple Gearward RangeBands at the top of the grip frame, anchoring these with a BB-sized dab of Shoe Goo. Adds little to the bulk of the gun for concealment, but improves the grip and mitigates the "sting" from firing hot loads. I tried these first on my S&W Model 12 K-frame and have since added them to my Model 37 Airweight Chief's Special and my Model 940 stainless Centennial in 9mm. Will try on the .38-44 Heavy Duty next.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 11 February 2016

Carrying a 1911 requires a holster: inside the belt (all new pants) or outside (no more tucked in shirts). How often are you going to need it? I am no longer “on the job". So, S&W J frame, in the strong side pants pocket. Look for old Herrett's “Gunfighter” or “Detective” grips. Do you really need at gun, or “gaming it"? Unless you are willing to go armed every day and every where, just put a rifle in your truck. FWIW, Ric

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Brodie posted this 11 February 2016

Bisley, I'll add my 2 cents in, although my advice is worth what you are paying for it. I own two 1911 type 45's a Colt Commander an original Colt 1911 with target sights and grips. I have and do carry both at times. What I normally carry is a High Standard double action 22WMR Derringer. Of the three pistols the derringer is the most difficult to shoot accurately and the easiest to carry. By the way I don't worry about the High Standards effectiveness on attackers; it is devastating.

RicinYacima has a good point: “Concealed carry of a large hand gun will require adjustment of your wardrobe." If you are going to use a weapon to protect your home get a used working 12ga. shot gun preferably a pump. First off it is more accurate in low light conditions and using small shot, ie. #6 or #7.5 , it will be very effective at home ranges and not shoot through walls very well. Some of my handgun loads could conceivably shoot through my home long ways and kill my neighbor next door. Something else to think about.

The first handgun my wife ever shot was that Commander with GI hard ball in it. Janet hit a soda can repeatedly at 25 yds from the first shot. Teach your wife to rack the slide by : 1. Holding the pistol close to her body . 2. Pull back with the hand on the slide while simultaneously pushing the pistol forward with the hand on the grip. That method works the best of any I have ever tried.

When we walk in the Natl Forest (only 200 yds from my door) I carry the commander with solid bullets in it or a 41 mag , or 45Colt single action. It town I generally carry my 22 mag. All that said I am now looking for a lighter more easily concealed more powerful weapon that will be comfortable in my big hands.

Practice Practice Practice. Only bullets that hit their target in a vital spot count. Fast, loud or spectacular NOISES are just that. They don't count. Accuracy does. If you have to use it , and don't draw it unless you HAVE TO USE IT, be deliberate don't fool around just put the bullet where it will be the most effective. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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Ed Harris posted this 12 February 2016

The factory grips on the J-frame S&W leave alot to be desired. At minimum I would install a Tyler T-grip. Have your wife learn to shoot the gun using wadcutters for both practice and carry. If her hand hurts and the recoil is still objectionable look for a set of Uncle Mike's Boot grips or Eagle Secret Service grips.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 10 December 2019

Dave, No my perspective is as a FF/Medic through two drug wars in the 1980's and 1990's. All of the semi-auto rounds with HP's plugged up on clothes and never expanded. The LE 158 grains HP +P would expand and all of the 357's. Here in the north country clothing is a big issue. I only worked with two patients with WC hits, both victims by the way, with chest hits and they were hard to keep alive to the ER. My experience has been shot placement, penetration and expansion, if any. Must be why the SWC is still so effective. Thanks, Ric

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RicinYakima posted this 12 December 2019

Or you can come stay at my house and hoe in my wife's rose beds. That will toughen up your web.

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R. Dupraz posted this 11 February 2016

Bisley: Some questions to consider first. The first question that needs to be answered is, am I willing and prepared to take a life if I have to? Have I made that decision? A sobering thought to be sure. What is the intended purpose of this gun? Home defense, kept in a vehicle or concealed daily carry? What is practical can vary with each of the above. And also can vary with the seasons because summer clothing can make concealability a problem. And what can happen then is the gun is not carried which of course defeats the purpose. If for home or the vehicle, the choices of type of HG pretty much are whatever you feel comfortable with. A personal defense firearm, particularly a carry gun is a compromise between effectiveness and concealability. I have no experience with the pistols that you mentioned except that I used a S&W j frame 3'' 38 special and a Colt 19ll combat commander as a second car guns at different times years back. But did carry the S&W while off duty. The Colt ended up staying in my car because of it's size and weight. And yes, those small guns are a lot harder to control and shoot accurately but are easier to conceal. They demand continual practice as it should with any handgun. Only hits on the target count no matter what gun you use. Whatever gun you chose, learn to shoot it well. My universal all time choice would be the Colt 1911 45 ACP without a doubt. But not always practical.

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Westhoff posted this 11 February 2016

I spent years shooting Bullseye Pistol competition. I shot my Colt 1911 in both .45 and CF classes. I earned my Distinguished Expert .45 medal in 1982. My choice for a carry gun was a Model 1911 Lightweight Officer's model.

UNTIL.... I tore the rotator cuff in my left shoulder. I'm right handed, so it shouldn't make any difference.

Except, suppose I had a round that failed to fire, or jammed, or any of the goofy things that (probably wouldn't) but just might happen that required two hands to clear, and one of my arms was out of commission for some reason?

I started carrying a 2 inch barrel S&W concealed hammer .38 revolver. Never a failure to feed because they're already chambered, and if I got a failure to fire, pulling the trigger again fires the next round. I don't need two hands with this one.

I now vote for a revolver for a carry gun.

Wes

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Scearcy posted this 11 February 2016

I own two colt 1911s and I like them. I use them only with factory ammo for SD purposes. They are not suitable for the female members of my family. Maybe yours is different. I have a Springfield XD45 that will feed anything but I can't find a decent holster for it. Its still a little much for my daughters. My next in line is a CZ 85. It also feeds anything but is a large pistol. The girls like to shoot this one. Which do I use? I carry a GP100 in the field. A wolf killed a dog in broad daylight within the city limits of Duluth yesterday. I had more bears than bucks on my trail cams last year. If I carry a gun for 2 legged predators, which is fairly rare, it is a SW J frame or a Sig 380.

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delmarskid1 posted this 12 February 2016

I have a Charter Bulldog .44 special. With healthy 200 grain loads it is shootable but not fun. I hope I never have to use it but it will work. It's almost as large as a k-frame Smith and Wesson but has a 2 1/2” barrel. With the small wood grips it is easy to put in a coat pocket or in the waist of my jeans (for a while at least). It holds 5 rounds and speed loaders are available. I also have a Browning 1910 in .32 acp. It will fit anywhere. I keep it in an old flip phone holster on a belt clip. It's a lot lacking in power they say but who really wants to get shot with anything?

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358156hp posted this 13 February 2016

To expand on Eds post a bit, S&W used Uncle Mikes grips on a number of production guns. They were rubber copies of the Spegel made wood grips, and were available in two different styles. The 38 Spl J frames got grips with two finger grooves, and the 357 mag guns got grips that were a bit longer, and had three finger grooves. While bulkier because of the extra length, the 3 finger groove 357 mag grips always seemed a bit more comfortable to me, and to others. If a shorter grip is desired, you could always use the 2 groove 38 Spl grips, or my favorite compact grip is Pachmayers “Compac Professional” grip, but my hands are likely much larger than your wifes hands are.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 13 February 2016

FWIW I have the model 36 chiefs special 5 shot 38spcl. My wife borrowed it often enough I bought her one. Both of us have the grip inserts. Two different types - they fit each of our grips - she's 5-0 and I'm 6-4.

Try several.

When I want something bigger, it's a 5 shot 44 spcl by Taurus. Had the S&W in 44 but the Taurus is MUCH smoother.

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Pigslayer posted this 14 February 2016

I have a Taurus snubby six shot, .38 Special revolver that I just love. I have big hands but the grips lay in the palm of my hand really nice. It's very comfortable to shoot and likes wadcutters really well.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Eutectic posted this 31 August 2016

If you are fixed on a medium or full size auto, get one used by a police department and use the ammunition they use. Let them do the reliability testing, they will do a better job! I have carried autos and will not carry one until it has fired 200 rounds of the carry ammo without a failure. I do not care if the model has gone 100% for a dozen people, yours may be different. I have carried 22's, 32's and 380s. Currently pocket size 380's are available, so if you want a small auto they are caliber of choice. Personally I like revolvers, and my wife does too. Smith J frames are our choice, they need an aftermarket grip, we use Pachmeyers. If you pocket carry, get a pocket holster. It will keep the gun cleaner and will present it in the pocket so you can draw it easily.

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beltfed posted this 09 December 2019

I agree with everything Tom Gray said,

but my choice, pretty much parallels his, except,

with a Kahr CM9. Exlt reliability, even shooting 115 gr SWC cast bullet loads

as well as the Hornady Critical Defense FTX and various Ball and HP rounds.

Great smooth trigger and no other appendages besides the slide stop and

mag release. Wt is only 15 oz. And I really like the white "Dot/Bar sights

better than 3 dot sights. Now just took delivery of another CM9 with Night front sight.

Also, have an equally performing Kahr CM40, 16 oz, for greater stopping power.

Price on the Kahr CM series is very reasonable, too.

beltfed/arnie

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David Reiss posted this 10 December 2019

Ric,

My experience WCs for self defense came from years of testing at our PD range. We had access to ballistic gelatin, so I had the opportunity to use testing WCs and almost all the available bullets.

Wadcutters just did not penetrate as much as other bullet styles at the velocity they were commonly loaded. If handloaded you could of course increase the velocity and get much better penetration. But using handloaded ammo for defense gives more fodder to defense or suing attorneys.

What I also found was that if any clothing and of course the heavier the cloth made it worse, Normal WCs just could not generate much penetration.

HBWCs reversed expanded much to soon contrary to popular belief. Again clothing defeated them easily.

Since most attackers wear some clothing (but not always as you probably know), they are not a good option.

I believe the flat nose is it's enemy unless the velocity is up above 900 fps. Back then their were no factory loaded options in that velocity range. Today that may be different with ammo companies like Buffalo Bore.

PS. - You are always welcome to contradict me any time. With all of the above said, I have always continued testing them and at 1100 fps they are wicked.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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Brodie posted this 10 December 2019

Supposedly the pillar in the center of the giant hollow point in the "Black Talon" ammo was supposed to stop or limit the plugging by heavy clothing. The BT ammo and the same bullets are still out there, but have been re-named so as to confuse the whiners.

B.E.Brickey

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max503 posted this 10 December 2019

For 33 years on the job and afterwards I have only three off-duty or concealed carry handguns. A Star PD .45 ACP was my main in the waist gun. A Smith model 49 .38 special was carried in the front pocket of my pants or coat pocket the remainder of the time. For the past 5 years I have carried a Taurus G2 compact 9mm. The theme common to all three of these has been reliability and comfort.

My ammo:.

45 ACP Speer Lawmen 200gr HP, .
38 Special Federal 158 gr SWCHP +P
9mm is Speer Gold Dot LE Duty 124 gr JHP.

For me a CC gun has to be non-intrusive to carry, like a j frame. And reliable. I want to put it in my pocket and forget it.

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M3 Mitch posted this 11 February 2016

I don't have first hand experience with any of the gats you are looking at, but, I think if the Ruger meets your needs as it is, right out of the box, for a carry gun, maybe this is not the best place to try to save a buck by buying a used gun (assuming it's on the market because it has issues) and “fix” it after the fact. Ruger stands behind their products well, beyond that they generally work well right out of the box.

That said, there are plenty of smiths out there that know how to make a 1911 do what you want it to do. That and it's an inherently good design IMHO, not hard to get one to “run” well.