Cast bullet hand loading for 22-250

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Last Post 28 March 2018

CBA Member

David R. posted this 13 March 2018

A little about myself first: I grew up shooting bushels of .22 LR. First with my grandfather, then boy scouts, afterwards Jr. ROTC. Later, in my twenties I shot some bullseye matches indoors with the .22 LR where I did fairly well. I moved on to .38 Special, .357 Magnum and .32 H&R Magnum. I had a wonderful mentor who had an encyclopedic knowledge of firearms, casting and reloading who helped me get started back in the late eighties and early nineties. I didn’t have the internet, but I had James and a Lyman manual and my results were satisfying. When I began reloading years ago my means were limited and my setup was minimal. I started with a Lee Loader and a mallet and eventually moved up to a Lee hand press and a “Speed Die”. (I don’t think they even make those now). Casting a 105 SWC from wheel weights scrounged from all over, never sizing them and tumble lubing in Liquid Alox I was shooting groups out of my revolvers that I could cover with my palm at fifty feet.

Fast forward to a couple of years ago and I had been away from my shooting hobby for twenty years. I was gifted a lovely Remington 700 chambered in 22-250. Initially I didn’t even know what I had. I began researching and learned a bit about the cartridge and that my gun was made in 1966, making it an early production version. I knew right away that I wanted to reload for this gun and use cast bullets if at all possible. It has been an interesting journey and it was what led me to find and join the CBA. I have very much enjoyed lurking and reading the posts of others and my only complaint is that the forum isn’t more active. Well, I’m making a contribution here that I hope will help a bit.

This is my first foray in to reloading for a rifle. The following is what I’m doing. I know that most of you in this group are much more experienced and knowledgable than myself and I welcome your insights and observations. Understanding that I am likely a bit vain, insecure and neurotic I trust that you will be gentle in your criticisms.

Lyman #225415 mold. This is a 55 grain bullet

Bullets cast in #2 alloy, tumble lubed in 45/45/10, gas check applied, sized .224 and lubed again.

Norma Brass with flash hole cleaned with unifying tool

Winchester primers

Cartridge overall length 2.214 (Lyman manual calls for 2.325, but I used a gizmo on my cleaning rod and one of my bullets to come up with the above measurement.

15.3 grains of 5744 This was the starting load with a listed velocity of 2.032 fps

Lee Factory Crimp

My first trip to the range was a disaster. I made multiple mistakes. My scope was badly out of adjustment and I was never going to get any bullets on target at the ambitious 100 yard distance that I was starting from. After digging worms somewhere midways down range for twenty rounds I shook my head and went home. My barrel was an evil mess. I have never seen such fouling. After a week of alternate soaking and scrubbing with brushes and patches I went to work with Kroil and JB Bore cleaner before worrying the hell out of it with JB Bore polish. Candidly I don’t know if I ever got it perfectly clean but it’s certainly shiny.

During a subsequent trip to the range I got my scope adjusted for fifty yards using factory ammo. If I had been holding well enough I think that it could shoot one hole groups at that distance.

For my second attempt with hand loads I cast in straight Linotype and followed the same lubing, sizing and loading procedure as above.

This time I was peppering the target in groups that were about four or five inches across (too poor to bother measuring in my opinion) This time I had a Chronograph and was able to check my velocity. The average was 2,240 fps. They only varied by fifty fps except for one wild shot that was 2,290. I was pleased with this and felt that I must have done something right to have my spread of velocity be that close. When I got home the gun cleaned up with just a few patches after soaking with Kroil.

I’m now wondering if this is going to work or not. I am forming the opinion that in the mid sixties when this cartridge / rifle combo was being developed that no one was thinking of doing what I’m trying to do. This thing was meant to shoot fast and flat, period! I attempted to determine my rate of twist using masking tape and my cleaning rod. I came up with 14:1 twice in a row. Since my velocity is a tad more than the manual listed I’m thinking that I will reduce the load to 13 grains of 5744 and see what they clock and if my groups tighten up.

On another forum I read where someone else wanted to do the same thing. One person responded asking “why would you want to emasculate such a fine cartridge?”. That’s a fair question and my answer is that I was given a nice rifle that I would just like to enjoy shooting. I didn't get to select the cartridge that it was chambered in. I usually only have access to a 100 yard range and I know of no reason that I need a 3,500 fps screamer. If I can get good target accuracy at 100 yards while making it easier on myself and my gun then that’s the reason.

I have not as yet slugged my barrel. I probably should.

I now offer this up to the brain trust to see what else I need to consider. Thanx in advance!

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JeffinNZ posted this 13 March 2018

Welcome about. The 225415 (old and new version) is a great little bullet. I have shot it a lot in .22 Hornet and .223 Rem with grand results and 1900-2300fps in both. The flat nose is just the ticket on small game. I shoot them pretty much as cast at lube them in a .225 die that is more like .2255 and a bit. I'd be inclined to just gas check and lube them without sizing. If you can get the bullets to hold snug in a fired case that's about perfect. Otherwise use a 'M' style die to expand the case mouth to allow oversize cast bullets to be seated without damage. I made a stepped expander for my .22 rifles; .222, .224, .226 inch. I run in the .222/.224 for shooting jacketed (the .224 deep enough for the heel of the bullet to enter the mouth) and then deeper for .224/.226 for the cast.

Photo for reference shows new version of the 225415 on the far left and beside it the old version.

Cheers from New Zealand

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onondaga posted this 14 March 2018

Your initial leading problem indicates undersized bullets.

The glove fit to the chamber mentioned is verifiable by using ink on the bullet of a dummy round. The test is valid for a new loaded bullet only once as the best fit shows smeared ink on at least the first exposed driving band all the way around. That indicates a slide fit to the chamber and this gives a cast bullet a stable start. Any less than a slide fit subtracts accuracy potential from cast bullets. Actually the bore measurement is not applicable for cast bullets in your rifle as the chamber slide size can be quite a bit larger than bore size and the bore will size cast bullets as fired. This is NOT so with jacketed bullets as a slide fit with them will spike pressure. That basic is important to understand as a beginning point in fitting your rifle with cast bullets.

I shoot cast a Handi-Rifle in .223 with the 225646 sized/checked .225 and Titegroup consistently under 1" @ 50 yards but it wasn't easy getting there. In order to succeed it took fit, alloy strength to load selection. Lube is the least important problem when the first two are solved in order.

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John Alexander posted this 14 March 2018

David R. wrote: "I have to admit that I like the idea of a bullet being round before it starts it's trip down the barrel. "

David, We all like the idea of a round bullet it's just that we seldom see one that hasn't been either bumped (swaged) or sized. Bullet mold blocks are seldom perfectly aligned. Don't worry about it. A lot of matches have been won with less than round bullets. How they fit is way more important.

You have already gotten a lot of good advice so I will restrain myself except to agree that softer alloy, lower velocities, more work on fit all are worth trying. I had my best accuracy in slow twist's with the 415 bullet.

Keep the posts coming on your progress.

John

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John Alexander posted this 15 March 2018

OU812,

Thanks for the kind words but you are too modest. That help goes both ways. I hope the work you have been doing will help others finally show the 30 caliber competition shooters that they have been shooting the wrong size bullets all these years.

I don't have a 22 with a 12" twist but your success with that twist and slightly shortened NOE 80 grain bullets that should be too long to stabilize ought to be telling us something. I'm not sure what, but when bullets that shouldn't stabilize in a given twist do just fine we ought to pay attention.

Nosee who has started posting here is also doing some interesting work with a 223 and powder coated NOE 80 grain bullets.

Other recent successes include JoeB's recent saga with the 223 and 22-250 as well as R Dupraz in today's post in "Contenders Get No Respect" shooting a 218 Bee with an even slower twist.

I hope others who have been put off by the old conventional wisdom that 22s won't shoot CBs accurately will be encouraged to give them a try.

John

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GP Idaho posted this 15 March 2018

David: I believe you'll be happy with your NOE purchase, I have over 50 of their expanders and size bushings for both body and nose sizing of various calibers. The bushing die and their gas check seating die are also fine tools. I'm a big fan of NOE moulds and tools. Gp

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John Alexander posted this 17 March 2018

Anybody that still contends that an "overbore" cartridge prevents match winning accuracy in CBA matches just hasn't been paying attention.

Joe Brennan's extensive shooting both the 223 and the 22-250 even hints that the larger case may even provide some advantages.

John

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OU812 posted this 20 March 2018

Tape and wrap a small piece of 600-800 grit sand paper to wood dowel or any round stock. I cut sand paper into strips about 1" wide. Adjust for a slight snug fit inside die. Mount the dowel inside drill then hone die back and forth creating a cross hatch pattern. A small amount of thin oil on sand paper will cut a little better. IT IS VERY EASY TO MAKE DIE TOO LARGE. Hone then size bullet and measure...repeat until die is size you need. I have screwed up more than one of these...so go easy.

Soft alloys will size smaller than harder alloys. So use the alloy you intend to use in rifle. Harder alloy springs back more after sizing.

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GP Idaho posted this 20 March 2018

An interesting read by author Carl Johnson can be found in an article titled "Cast bullet loads for the 22-250, inch groups at 100 yrds. at 2700fps". This is from The art of bullet casting, Handloader and Rifle magazine 1966-1981, Wolfe publishing. Carl includes a chart of his results (some fifty years ago) using 43 to 53gr. bullets in a 14 twist. His best accuracy was found pushing a hard alloy to just under the fps that the bullet disintegrated in flight. Gp

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OU812 posted this 21 March 2018

Soft alloy and quick cleaner burning powders like Titegroup is a good starting point. There are lots of other possibilities...it just requires lots of testing.

I am sure longer and heavier bullets will shoot well in your 1/14 twist barrel if you push them faster.

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John Alexander posted this 23 March 2018

David R: You have the right attitude. If we're not doing this for fun, what the hell for. That doesn't mean that one isn't doing their best to improve which your clearly are.

There may be something to Ken's observation. You can easily easily check it out and maybe solve the problem at the same time easily by loading an extra round for each group you intend to shoot (maybe with your culled bullets) and firing that first shot off paper into the backstop.

My only other suggestion right now is to reduce the powder instead of increasing it - or try both. It is no accident that a lot of competitors shoot at 1600 to 1800 fps.

Keep up the good work. It is interesting to follow your progress.

John

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frnkeore posted this 23 March 2018

David,

Your on the right tract, if each time you go out, accuracy improves.

50 yard groups are harder to read than 100 yard groups. From your, now improved results, you need to go to 100. Take note of Ken's observation of the first shot and fire a "fouler" or two, before starting groups. Since you have a chronograph, note the vertical dispersion to see if it is from velocity differences. That will show much more at 100. I like <25 fps extreme spreads.

Regarding your rifle, that vintage Remington had excellent workmanship. All my Rem's are that old or older Two things that you can do to improve them are:

1. Take a dollar bill, wrap it around the barrel and slide it down the barrel channel in the stock. If it doesn't go all the way to the receiver (it most likely won't), pull the action and add a paper shim under the front action screw (match book cover is what I use) until it does go all the way. A floated barrel, is much easier to work with for accuracy.

2. The Rem triggers of that vintage, are good ones and can be adjusted. If you know anyone that can do it, have them show you. If not, look up a drawing of the trigger mechanism and adjust the pull screw first, back it off, until you get ~3lb. Then, with a good pad, tap the rifle butt on it and see if the adjustment is safe. Wolffe trigger springs are available, also to lower trigger pull. You can get less than 3lb, safely but, you may have to adjust the sear, too. Use the same test method for that. I can get 1.5lb on most of my Rem bolt rifles w/o the Wolffe springs.

Frank

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R. Dupraz posted this 23 March 2018

David:

It is interesting to watch your progress and without a doubt you are making some. I still have a soft spot for those older Remington 700's because of the many that I have had over the years, they were all shooters with jacketed, some amazingly so. This process is not easy or brief and one must be careful not to get the cart ahead of the horse so to speak. You have a good foundation to start with in that older Remington. An orderly process, one thing at a time.

So, after 50+ yrs. of pulling triggers these are some of my suggestions.

1. I hope you meant that you "slugged the throat instead of the "bore to find out it's size. Just to get that out of the way first.

2. In answer to my earlier post when I suggested that you check your as cast bullets to see what the diameter was, your reply was a measured .224"- 226". Too much ! If you are sizing to .225'', some of your bullets may be too small for the throat. All sized bullets need to be of proper size and uniform. Check diameter after sizing. Measure sort the castings and keep all that are at your intended diameter or can be sized to it. This will come as you casting improves.

3. I would "not" take the barreled action out of the stock, at least not at this point. If this old sporter is putting five jacketed in 1 .25", that tells me that there can't be too much wrong with the bedding. Some times with an old rifle where the stock and metal have never been parted, and then one does. the accuracy will suffer and be worse. Maybe, it's as good as it's going to get after all these years. Just don't know. Also, the jacketed grouping can be your control. You would just be introducing another variable that you don't now have. Maybe later after you have exhausted everything else and have moved out to 100yds. Just make sure that all screws are tight ie, action, scope mounts, etc.

4. Stay at fifty yards with your load development until you have gotten the smallest groups as are possible. Among other things, it helps to build confidence..

Hope this is of use

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 March 2018

david r.:

just a couple thoughts on the highly complicated problem of cast bullet accuracy:

first, SIMPLIFY ...reduce the * highly complicated * to just a half-dozen "" things to keep in mind "" ; these 4 or 7 things will get you to a very usable level of accuracy ... for plinking or hunting .... many of us here settle at this fun level, and just enjoy shooting our guns and watching bean cans fly.

a reasonable goal would be whatever the gun can shoot with good mj bullets ... plus about 1 moa. most production deer rifles can ( eventually ) shoot about 2 or 2.5 moa groups using the reduced instruction set ... heh . and a 2-3 moa gun will give a few 3/4 inch 3 or 5 shot groups ... nice to look at !!

************

actually the first rule is to ask here about anything cast ... oh, btw, if you look over past targets posted here, you will see a lot of 1.5 to 3 moa groups ... and even we " experienced " casters will occasionally see that shotgun pattern you refer to ... myself i can't really explain how that happens even when following all the rules .. well, except the " stay flexible and try again " rule ( g ) .

on the sizing thing ...strangely, the casting should be a sliding fit in the THROAT .... apparently the distortion caused at ignition by squeezing the bullet down as it enters the smaller groove/bore diameter .... is better than having it expand randomly ( and erratically ) into an loose throat cavity ... or: if sized to groove diameter and shot in a larger throat :: we think the casting first expands randomly to fit the throat anyway and then gets forced back down to groove diameter ... kinda double jeopardy ...

( yep, you are thinking we should make the throat as tight as the groove diameter :: congrats ! ... that is called a match chamber ... but production rifles don't come that way ... and if you shoot cba production rules in competition you can't * improve * the chamber . )

next, to get to this useful 2 moa ... you don't need perfect bullets, perfect powder charges, perfect brass, ... you can burn out spending late hours for nearly zero gain .... ( now if you happen to get that lucky rifle, lucky mold...and your rig shoots 1.4 moa 50 shot groups right off the start with SIMPLE rules ... then join the 1/10 per cent and start getting very very picky !! )

again, the most important " suggestion " is :: fit .. the bullet ideally should be fully supported before firing ... both the rear throat diameter portion and THE NOSE ... nose fitting is the hardest... because your sizer doesn't size the nose !!! ... how do you get a nice sliding nose seat in the chamber/barrel ?? ... easiest is to choose a mold that has a nose about right .... you can buy a custom mold which might get you close ... but it is hard to hold casting variables that close. currently the best answer is to get a NOE nose sizer ... search the forum ( there is a search button ) ... . we think if the nose is unsupported it is more likely to slump to one side into the grooves at firing .... and the result is a bent thingie coming out of the muzzle a couple feet later .... ... flies like a bird with a broken wing ...

cleaning: while getting to that 2 moa level, just clean gently every 20 shots ... 1 ed's red, 2 brush strokes, one more ed's red ... rarely does squeaky clean help ... after initial success, you can shoot until the groups grow with that load ... may be 20, may be 200 ... serious * leading * is rare with any decent cast load ... if you find a factory barrel that is so bad that it significantly leads it will never get " lucky with cast " anyway ... in 50 years i have never had a barrel " lead " beyond specks with normal loads .

**************

i like to start a project by loading to about 1200-1300 fps ... keeping simple, i don't use gas checks at this level ... this lets me get my dies, seating depth etc set and heck sometimes i get good accuracy at these levels and find no reason to go faster . above 1400-1500 gas checks are usually needed for the 2 moa groups. since i am merely a lowly plinker anymore, i haven't used gas checks for 18 years ...

note the above simple rules really boil down to:: ... bullet fit ... and a gun that is capable of an accuracy level at which you start having fun ...

ken

oh, triggers ... if you have a 3 lb trigger you can mentally deduct about 1/2 moa from your group size you just shot ... at 1.5 lbs you get no further handicap ( g ) . somewhere in the 90's remmy sabotaged their 700 triggers to a 6 lb pull ... the factory spring can't be safely adjusted to 1.5 lbs., a lighter spring can let you adjust it correctly. if in a panic sometimes a clipped ball point spring will work !!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 March 2018

here is a link discussing ed's red .

http://handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=9

a simple throat check is to seat your chosen cast bullet loosely and very long ... chamber it and see how far ( or if ) the throat pushes the bullet back in the case ... that gives you an idea of the length of the throat ... it is often best to seat the bullet out as far as possible ... not always, but often.

the best ... and highly suggested method ... is to create an image of the entire forward part of the chamber including the throat and even a 3/8 inch portion of the rifling ahead of the throat. this will give you a lot of information . can/will save you weeks of random trying things that won't work .

use the search button here to look for posts on chamber casting ... chamber images ... cerrosafe ... chamber upset ... pound cast ...

cerrosafe is some neat stuff ... it melts at hairdryer temps and you gently pour the liquid into a pre-heated chamber ....stopping the flow with a wadded patch about 1/2 inch in front of the throat . let it set up and then push it back out and you can see what your chamber looks like .... you can order cerrosafe from rotometals, and you can use it over and over ... but i suggest you do a cast for every gun and store it for reference.

* pound casts * involve upsetting soft lead in the area of the front of the neck and into the rifling ... i put a spacer rod into an empty case so i don't need so much lead and chamber the case ... the soft lead should be a soft rod seated in the neck and extends an inch or better up the throat before you tap it from the muzzle with a brass or aluminum rod ( softer than barrel but don't bugger a good cleaning rod ) ... use about a hundred little taps rather than 5 giant hammer blows . this gives a good image also; i keep soft lead wire around for this purpose , you can use 22 rimfire bullets also , melted into a rod shape first .

hope this helps. ken

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R. Dupraz posted this 25 March 2018

Until that bore is cleaned of fouling, both powder and copper, which it likely is, and you then determine what size bullet will fill the throat, everything else you try will be wasted effort.

I have a pristine old Remington 722 222 Remington. And when I got it years ago, the bore was so fouled it took me a couple of days to get it clean. Turned out that it is now one of the most accurate rifles that I have ever owned.

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John Alexander posted this 25 March 2018

Thanx guys.

I was using 8 grains of Tightgroup. I like the idea of backing off a tad and skipping the gas check.

===========

I suspect you don't need this reminder but -- If you want to tell if a smaller charge shoots better don't leave off the gas check as well. That should be a separate test. One variable change at a time is best.

John

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GP Idaho posted this 13 March 2018

David: First of all, welcome to the group. There are a few of us here toying with the 22-250s. My Savage model 112 heavy barrel is also cursed with the 1 in 14 twist and I've found it to hate bullets over 55gr. 2250fps seems fast to me but if you're not getting a leaded bore, you're doing things close to right as far as alloy and lube go. I haven't come up with a round as yet to brag on but getting some in the 1.5-2" range at 100yrds. I've been using TiteGroup in my testing and the charges have been in the 5.5-8gr. range, better on the upper end and I'll most likely go up a bit on that charge. I powder coat most of my bullets and like the cleanliness of it. I'm sizing at .227 and seating just deep enough to get a good grip on the bullet. The throat of the Savage is much too long to seat the small bullets up tight like I do with most rifle rounds. Check out some of the testing that has been done by our friend Joe B. and good luck with the Remington. Gp

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GP Idaho posted this 13 March 2018

David: The M-die is a stepped expansion die made by Lyman. For expansion dies I prefer the NOE product as you have a choice to the one thousandth for the perfect fit. Gp

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OU812 posted this 14 March 2018

Good bullet choices (bore rider) are very limited in that caliber and for that slow twist rate barrel. The Lyman 225646 would be a good choice.Using softer alloy under 10 bhn will cure the out of roundness when fired. Size them larger .226 diameter or at least seat on the gas check with Lee sizer that has been honed larger .226. Quick burning powder such as Titegroup is a verygood choice...start with 8 grains and work up. Seat the bullet long so that it will be pushed back slightly into case neck when chambered and bore ride section engraves rifling full length.

Harder linotype or #2 bullets need to fit throat like a glove to work best. So softer will work better for your situation.

Maybe try a softer alloy (10 bhn or under) with the bullet you are currently using and size larger .226. Also try Titegroup powder.

Fine Bronze wool wrapped around a bore brush works verygood at removing lead fouling.

The Lee collet die will let you adjust neck tension larger. M die is not needed to seat bullet if neck is sized large enough and chamfered well. I like about .002-.003 neck tension.

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OU812 posted this 14 March 2018

" Lube is the least important problem when the first two are solved in order."

I have seen perfect fitting bullets shoot very badly because of using too much of the wrong lube. There is a perfect balance.

Your tumble lube should work fine. Clean the barrel when accuracy starts to fade.

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