Cast bullet hand loading for 22-250

  • 732 Views
  • Last Post 28 March 2018
David R. posted this 13 March 2018

A little about myself first: I grew up shooting bushels of .22 LR. First with my grandfather, then boy scouts, afterwards Jr. ROTC. Later, in my twenties I shot some bullseye matches indoors with the .22 LR where I did fairly well. I moved on to .38 Special, .357 Magnum and .32 H&R Magnum. I had a wonderful mentor who had an encyclopedic knowledge of firearms, casting and reloading who helped me get started back in the late eighties and early nineties. I didn’t have the internet, but I had James and a Lyman manual and my results were satisfying. When I began reloading years ago my means were limited and my setup was minimal.  I started with a Lee Loader and a mallet and eventually moved up to a Lee hand press and a “Speed Die”. (I don’t think they even make those now). Casting a 105 SWC from wheel weights scrounged from all over, never sizing them and tumble lubing in Liquid Alox I was shooting groups out of my revolvers that I could cover with my palm at fifty feet.

 Fast forward to a couple of years ago and I had been away from my shooting hobby for twenty years. I was gifted a lovely Remington 700 chambered in 22-250. Initially I didn’t even know what I had. I began researching and learned a bit about the cartridge and that my gun was made in 1966, making it an early production version. I knew right away that I wanted to reload for this gun and use cast bullets if at all possible. It has been an interesting journey and it was what led me to find and join the CBA. I have very much enjoyed lurking and reading the posts of others and my only complaint is that the forum isn’t more active. Well, I’m making a contribution here that I hope will help a bit. 

 This is my first foray in to reloading for a rifle. The following is what I’m doing. I know that most of you in this group are much more experienced and knowledgable than myself and I welcome your insights and observations. Understanding that I am likely a bit vain, insecure and neurotic I trust that you will be gentle in your criticisms. 

 Lyman #225415 mold. This is a 55 grain bullet

Bullets cast in #2 alloy, tumble lubed in 45/45/10, gas check applied, sized .224 and lubed again. 

Norma Brass with flash hole cleaned with unifying tool

Winchester primers

Cartridge overall length 2.214 (Lyman manual calls for 2.325, but I used a gizmo on my cleaning rod and one of my bullets to come up with the above measurement. 

 15.3 grains of 5744 This was the starting load with a listed velocity of 2.032 fps

 Lee Factory Crimp

 My first trip to the range was a disaster. I made multiple mistakes. My scope was badly out of adjustment and I was never going to get any bullets on target at the ambitious 100 yard distance that I was starting from. After digging worms somewhere midways down range for twenty rounds I shook my head and went home. My barrel was an evil mess. I have never seen such fouling. After a week of alternate soaking and scrubbing with brushes and patches I went to work with Kroil and JB Bore cleaner before worrying the hell out of it with JB Bore polish. Candidly I don’t know if I ever got it perfectly clean but it’s certainly shiny. 

 During a subsequent trip to the range I got my scope adjusted for fifty yards using factory ammo. If I had been holding well enough I think that it could shoot one hole groups at that distance. 

 For my second attempt with hand loads I cast in straight Linotype and followed the same lubing, sizing and loading procedure as above. 

 This time I was peppering the target in groups that were about four or five inches across (too poor to bother measuring in my opinion)  This time I had a Chronograph and was able to check my velocity. The average was 2,240 fps. They only varied by fifty fps except for one wild shot that was 2,290. I was pleased with this and felt that I must have done something right to have my spread of velocity be that close.  When I got home the gun cleaned up with just a few patches after soaking with Kroil. 

 I’m now wondering if this is going to work or not. I am forming the opinion that in the mid sixties when this cartridge / rifle combo was being developed that no one was thinking of doing what I’m trying to do. This thing was meant to shoot fast and flat, period! I attempted to determine my rate of twist using masking tape and my cleaning rod. I came up with 14:1 twice in a row. Since my velocity is a tad more than the manual listed I’m thinking that I will reduce the load to 13 grains of 5744 and see what they clock and if my groups tighten up. 

 On another forum I read where someone else wanted to do the same thing. One person responded asking “why would you want to emasculate such a fine cartridge?”. That’s a fair question and my answer is that I was given a nice rifle that I would just like to enjoy shooting. I didn't get to select the cartridge that it was chambered in. I usually only have access to a 100 yard range and I know of no reason that I need a 3,500 fps screamer. If I can get good target accuracy at 100 yards while making it easier on myself and my gun then that’s the reason. 

 I have not as yet slugged my barrel. I probably should. 

 I now offer this up to the brain trust to see what else I need to consider. Thanx in advance! 

 

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
GP Idaho posted this 13 March 2018

David: First of all, welcome to the group.  There are a few of us here toying with the 22-250s.  My Savage model 112 heavy barrel is also cursed with the 1 in 14 twist and I've found it to hate bullets over 55gr. 2250fps seems fast to me but if you're not getting a leaded bore, you're doing things close to right as far as alloy and lube go. I haven't come up with a round as yet to brag on but getting some in the 1.5-2" range at 100yrds.  I've been using TiteGroup in my testing and the charges have been in the 5.5-8gr. range, better on the upper end and I'll most likely go up a bit on that charge.  I powder coat most of my bullets and like the cleanliness of it. I'm sizing at .227 and seating just deep enough to get a good grip on the bullet. The throat of the Savage is much too long to seat the small bullets up tight like I do with most rifle rounds. Check out some of the testing that has been done by our friend Joe B. and good luck with the Remington. Gp

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
JeffinNZ posted this 13 March 2018

Welcome about.  The 225415 (old and new version) is a great little bullet.  I have shot it a lot in .22 Hornet and .223 Rem with grand results and 1900-2300fps in both.  The flat nose is just the ticket on small game.  I shoot them pretty much as cast at lube them in a .225 die that is more like .2255 and a bit.  I'd be inclined to just gas check and lube them without sizing.  If you can get the bullets to hold snug in a fired case that's about perfect.  Otherwise use a 'M' style die to expand the case mouth to allow oversize cast bullets to be seated without damage.  I made a stepped expander for my .22 rifles; .222, .224, .226 inch.  I run in the .222/.224 for shooting jacketed (the .224 deep enough for the heel of the bullet to enter the mouth) and then deeper for .224/.226 for the cast.

Photo for reference shows new version of the 225415 on the far left and beside it the old version.

Cheers from New Zealand

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
David R. posted this 13 March 2018

Thank you for the responses. This is encouraging. Who knows? Maybe this will work after all. What is a "M style die"? 

Attached Files

GP Idaho posted this 13 March 2018

David: The M-die is a stepped expansion die made by Lyman. For expansion dies I prefer the NOE product as you have a choice to the one thousandth for the perfect fit.  Gp

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
David R. posted this 14 March 2018

This evening, I slugged my bore and measured .225. I checked a couple of my bullets none of them are round. They measure between .225 and .226 as I rotate them in the micrometer. It's interesting to me that I didn't have leading on my second attempt. I suppose that I could try shooting them as they drop without sizing, but I have to admit that I like the idea of a bullet being round before it starts it's trip down the barrel. 

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 14 March 2018

Good bullet choices (bore rider) are very limited in that caliber and for that slow twist rate barrel. The Lyman 225646 would be a good choice.Using softer alloy under 10 bhn will cure the out of roundness when fired. Size them larger .226 diameter or at least seat on the gas check with Lee sizer that has been honed larger .226. Quick burning powder such as Titegroup is a verygood choice...start with 8 grains and work up. Seat the bullet long so that it will be pushed back slightly into case neck when chambered and bore ride section engraves rifling full length.

Harder linotype or #2 bullets need to fit throat like a glove to work best. So softer will work better for your situation.

Maybe try a softer alloy (10 bhn or under) with the bullet you are currently using and size larger .226. Also try Titegroup powder.

Fine Bronze wool wrapped around a bore brush works verygood at removing lead fouling.

The Lee collet die will let you adjust neck tension larger. M die is not needed to seat bullet if neck is sized large enough and chamfered well. I like about .002-.003 neck tension.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
onondaga posted this 14 March 2018

Your initial leading problem indicates undersized bullets.

The glove fit to the chamber mentioned is verifiable by using ink on the bullet of a dummy round. The test is valid for a new loaded bullet only once as the best fit shows smeared ink on at least the first exposed driving band all the way around. That indicates a slide fit to the chamber and this gives a cast bullet a stable start. Any less than a slide fit subtracts accuracy potential from cast bullets. Actually the bore measurement is not applicable for cast bullets in your rifle as the chamber slide size can be quite a bit larger than bore size and the bore will size cast bullets as fired. This is NOT so with jacketed bullets as a slide fit with them will spike pressure. That basic is important to understand as a beginning point in fitting your rifle with cast bullets.

I shoot cast a Handi-Rifle in .223 with the 225646 sized/checked .225 and Titegroup consistently under 1" @ 50 yards but it wasn't easy getting there. In order to succeed it took fit, alloy strength to load selection. Lube is the least important problem when the first two are solved in order.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
OU812 posted this 14 March 2018

" Lube is the least important problem when the first two are solved in order."

 

I have seen perfect fitting bullets shoot very badly because of using too much of the wrong lube. There is a perfect balance.

 

Your tumble lube should work fine. Clean the barrel when accuracy starts to fade.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
John Alexander posted this 14 March 2018

David R. wrote: "I have to admit that I like the idea of a bullet being round before it starts it's trip down the barrel. "

David, We all like the idea of a round bullet it's just that we seldom see one that hasn't been either bumped (swaged) or sized. Bullet mold blocks are seldom perfectly aligned. Don't worry about it. A lot of matches have been won with less than round bullets.  How they fit is way more important.

You have already gotten a lot of good advice so I will restrain myself except to agree that softer alloy, lower velocities, more work on fit all are worth trying. I had my best accuracy in slow twist's with the 415 bullet.

Keep the posts coming on your progress.

John

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
David R. posted this 14 March 2018

Thank you all for your responses. I do hope that this conversation will continue. I do not yet own a hardness tester for my alloy. I'm looking hard at the one offered by L.B.T. For now I stamp my ingots and I can tell that the ones I stamp with "PL" only require a light tap to leave a legible impression, but the ones I stamp "2" and "LT" require a bit more emphasis with the hammer. My blending is a bit like making chili.... a lump of this and a lump of that, seasoned with a dash of tin. I have a batch of .224 bullets loaded with 13.0 grains of 5744 waiting to go to the range, but now I suspect that I should just pull them and start over. OU812's suggestion is easy enough for me to follow. I'll look in to the larger expansion die as my bullets are getting squeezed as it is now and if I go to a softer alloy I can see this being an even bigger issue. 

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 15 March 2018

John A. knows a lot about the .224 caliber. Most everything i learned about the 224, I learned from him.

BTW I do not own or have I ever shot a 22-250. All of my testing has been using .223 Remington in 1/12 twist  and 1/9 twist barrel.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
John Alexander posted this 15 March 2018

OU812,

Thanks for the kind words but you are too modest. That help goes both ways.  I hope the work you have been doing will help others finally show the 30 caliber competition shooters that they have been shooting the wrong size bullets all these years.

I don't have a 22 with a 12" twist but your success with that twist and slightly shortened NOE 80 grain bullets that should be too long to stabilize ought to be telling us something.  I'm not sure what, but when bullets that shouldn't stabilize in a given twist do just fine we ought to pay attention.

Nosee who has started posting here is also doing some interesting work with a 223 and powder coated NOE 80 grain bullets.

Other recent successes include JoeB's recent saga with the 223 and 22-250 as well as  R Dupraz in today's post in  "Contenders Get No Respect" shooting a 218 Bee with an even slower twist.

I hope others who have been put off by the old conventional wisdom that 22s won't shoot CBs accurately will be encouraged to give them a try.

John

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
David R. posted this 15 March 2018

I have a Lee Universal neck expanding die as well as a N.O.E. expander for .226 on the way. I also ordered a Lee .225 sizing die that I suppose that can open to .226 if needed. Having a sizing die seems like a more tidy way of pressing on my gas checks. Is that how you guys do it? Regarding my alloy, I suppose that I can take some of my #2 and add a couple of lumps of pure lead to it and see how that works. 

Attached Files

GP Idaho posted this 15 March 2018

David: I believe you'll be happy with your NOE purchase, I have over 50 of their expanders and size bushings for both body and nose sizing of various calibers. The bushing die and their gas check seating die are also fine tools. I'm a big fan of NOE moulds and tools.  Gp

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
M3 Mitch posted this 17 March 2018

I actually got started on cast bullets with my old Ruger M77 light barrel 22-250.  Loading the 225415, old version, sized slightly to about .225, gas check, Alox lube.  The bullets were cast of wheel weights.  This was about 1980.  Loaded with a light charge of 700-X, velocity of about 1800 to 2000 fps.  I got decent but not match winning levels of accuracy right away.

Not many people would recommend a 22-250 as a first cast bullet gun, most people would start with a pistol or revolver, or at least a less overbore cartridge.  But, being a kid, I didn't know any better, and sort of like the bumble bee, who theoretically can't fly, with that big body and small wings - the bumblebee does not know any better, so goes ahead and flies anyway. 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
John Alexander posted this 17 March 2018

Anybody that still contends that an "overbore" cartridge prevents match winning accuracy in CBA matches just hasn't been paying attention. 

Joe Brennan's extensive shooting both the 223 and the 22-250 even hints that the larger case may even provide some advantages.

John

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
David R. posted this 17 March 2018

I'm enjoying this tread immensely. I'm encouraged and looking forward to trying your suggestions. I had a package from Midway arrive today and yesterday I got a couple of goodies. Too tired to hold my head up tonight but I'll get to work on the soon. i really do appreciate the input from this group. 

Attached Files

David R. posted this 20 March 2018

The other day I mixed up some softer alloy. I mixed #2 and pure lead half and half and cast a batch of my 55 grain bullets. I received my .225 Lee sizing die and used it to put my gas checks on. I measured a couple of my bullets afterwards and they were only a shade over .224. I'm concerned that my bullets are still undersized and thinking that I need to open up my die a bit. I have an extra .224 die that I don't need and I'm thinking that it needs to become a .226.  How does one do that? I'm not a machinist. I envision taking a piece of aluminum rod and cutting a split in the end where I can stick a strip of emory cloth. .224 seems like a tiny hole to attempt this in. Suggestions are welcome.  I now have the Lee Universal neck expander and the N.O.E. piece to go in it. May be show time soon unless I decide to hold off until I get the sizing die opened up and bit and make some more bullets. 

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 20 March 2018

I haven't read the entire thread but have you checked the as cast diameter of your bullets to confirm that they are not dropping .224" out of the mold?

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
OU812 posted this 20 March 2018

Tape and wrap a small piece of 600-800 grit sand paper to wood dowel or any round stock. I cut sand paper into strips about 1" wide. Adjust for a slight snug fit inside die. Mount the dowel inside drill then hone die back and forth creating a cross hatch pattern. A small amount of thin oil on sand paper will cut a little better.  IT IS VERY EASY TO MAKE DIE TOO LARGE. Hone then size bullet and measure...repeat until die is size you need. I have screwed up more than one of these...so go easy.

Soft alloys will size smaller than harder alloys. So use the alloy you intend to use in rifle. Harder alloy springs back more after sizing.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
GP Idaho posted this 20 March 2018

An interesting read by author Carl Johnson can be found in an article titled "Cast bullet loads for the 22-250, inch groups at 100 yrds. at 2700fps". This is from  The art of bullet casting, Handloader and Rifle magazine 1966-1981, Wolfe publishing. Carl includes a chart of his results (some fifty years ago) using 43 to 53gr. bullets in a 14 twist. His best accuracy was found pushing a hard alloy to just under the fps that the bullet disintegrated in flight.  Gp

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
David R. posted this 21 March 2018

I haven't read the entire thread but have you checked the as cast diameter of your bullets to confirm that they are not dropping .224" out of the mold?

I just cast a new batch of this softer alloy and the two bullets that I measured varied from just a shade over .224 to just over .226 as I rotated them in my micrometer. 

 

Attached Files

David R. posted this 21 March 2018

An interesting read by author Carl Johnson can be found in an article titled "Cast bullet loads for the 22-250, inch groups at 100 yrds. at 2700fps". This is from  The art of bullet casting, Handloader and Rifle magazine 1966-1981, Wolfe publishing. Carl includes a chart of his results (some fifty years ago) using 43 to 53gr. bullets in a 14 twist. His best accuracy was found pushing a hard alloy to just under the fps that the bullet disintegrated in flight.  Gp

Wow! Now you've piqued my interest! I would love to read this. For the moment, I'm going to pursue this "softer, bigger slower" approach and I'll post my results, but I'm certainly game for trying hard and fast if someone else has had success with that approach. 

Attached Files

Coydog posted this 21 March 2018

I have a Rem 700 in a 22-250 and shoot cast in it and I size the boolits to .225 I use Lyman 55 grs one that is the long one of the 2 and for my mix they drop at 60grs. it works for me at about 60yards I have 3/4" groups. I also got a mold from NOE for a 45 grs PB and GC on the same mold because i wanted to shoot both the PB I got it to shoot like a 22lr. and use the GC  full load.

Lyman 22cal #225646 is the mold I use that is 55grs.

 

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
David R. posted this 21 March 2018

Okay GP, I found the book on Amazon and pulled the trigger so to speak.. You guys are "making" me spend money on this. I also ran across a post on another forum where someone had posted load data. Is it okay for me to copy and paste that data here? 

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 21 March 2018

Soft alloy and quick cleaner burning powders like Titegroup is a good starting point. There are lots of other possibilities...it just requires lots of testing.

I am sure longer and heavier bullets will shoot well in your 1/14 twist barrel if you push them faster. 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
David R. posted this 23 March 2018

Last night I loaded up 20 rounds. Softer alloy, sized .225 with eight grains of Tightgroup, no crimp. I chambered a dummy round and measured it and set my overall length to that. Today I went to the range with my friend. Same friend that gave me the gun. Results were much improved over previous attempts, but still room for improvement. I'm really encouraged and thankful for the input that I'm getting from you guys. I shot four groups that were supposed to be five each, but got carried away on the first group and shot six so the fourth group only had four shots. Velocity ranged from 1888 fps with some duplicates at the lowest to 1998 fps being the fastest. Most of the shots hovered between 1,926 to 1,957 fps. The images below posted in reverse order. The distance was fifty yards. I made no scope adjustments and no attempts to compensate for the scope being off. I was only interested in groups. When I got home and looked at the bore with a bore light it looked pretty nice. Gun isn't really dirty and since my fourth group looked the best I don't think that leading is a problem. 

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 23 March 2018

pretty good ... especially for those little 22 sized bullets  ...   minute of pop can is a goal worth attaining !! ..  some of us never get much better than that .... congrats !!

hey i notice that your first shots are all high and left ...  if more than a minute or so elapsed between groups .... could it be different barrel conditions ?? ....  heh heh, like reading tea leaves ....

great to see targets ... makes me want to get out and punch a few myself ...  thanks

ken

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
Scearcy posted this 23 March 2018

Good catch, Ken. The first one is high and left! Four times in a row seems like more than a coincidence. If #1 were moved into the groups one could get pretty optimistic about this combo. David are you still using liquid alox for lube? Too much lube perhaps???

Jim

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
OU812 posted this 23 March 2018

You should be shooting about 2" groups @ 100 yards...those fifty yards groups are not good crysorry. Have you ever shot jacketed @100 yards with this rifle? What type of Remington is it...is barrel free floated, is barrel clean. What power scope (more power helps)? Lots go into shooting good groups

Have you done a chamber cast or pound cast to see what the throat looks like? This will tell you if chamber is cut strait and how much erosion there is. Bullet Fit is very important.

 

 

Attached Files

David R. posted this 23 March 2018

Good catch, Ken. The first one is high and left! Four times in a row seems like more than a coincidence. If #1 were moved into the groups one could get pretty optimistic about this combo. David are you still using liquid alox for lube? Too much lube perhaps???

Jim

Yes, tumble lube. Perhaps I am using too much. At this point I feel that there are other problems that are larger than lube. I intend to try both unsized and also hone a die out to .226 and try that. I may try a touch more powder too. 

Attached Files

David R. posted this 23 March 2018

You should be shooting about 2" groups @ 100 yards...those fifty yards groups are not good crysorry. Have you ever shot jacketed @100 yards with this rifle? What type of Remington is it...is barrel free floated, is barrel clean. What power scope (more power helps)? Lots go into shooting good groups

Have you done a chamber cast or pound cast to see what the throat looks like? This will tell you if chamber is cut strait and how much erosion there is. Bullet Fit is very important.

Agreed. These are not good groups at all!  I just wanted to share my current status for the purpose of learning.

I have shot jacketed  factory ammo in this gun. It printed 1.25 inch five shots groups at 100 yards. The gun was clearly capable of better. The shooter (me) was stirring soup with the gun barrel and and amazed that it was as good as it was. I suspect that this is a sub-MOA gun with the right load and the nut on the trigger tightened a bit. My first effort with my own cast bullets missed the paper entirely. My second effort scattered most of the shots all over the paper. While these groups are lousy compared to what this gun is capable of, they at least resemble something that can be called a "group". I am trying to follow the suggestions of the members here and I wanted them to see my progress, such as it is. 

This is a Remington 700 with a Redfield scope. According to the serial number it was manufactured in 1966. To my knowledge nothing has ever been done to it  and it has been shot very little. One person who saw it called it a "time capsule gun" because of it's like new condition. The trigger is crisp, but heavy. I'm afraid that I don't know what a chamber cast or throat cast is, but I joined this group to learn new things.  I slugged the bore and it measured .225. I have cast and loaded thousands of .357 and .32 rounds but this is my first foray in to rifle loading. I'm not interested in shooting jacketed bullets. It's more fun to make my own even if it does present a whole new set of challenges. This is just for fun and my life doesn't depend on it. 

 

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 23 March 2018

David R: You have the right attitude. If we're not doing this for fun, what the hell for.  That doesn't mean that one isn't doing their best to improve which your clearly are.

There may be something to Ken's observation.  You can easily easily check it out and maybe solve the problem at the same time easily by loading an extra round for each group you intend to shoot (maybe with your culled bullets) and firing that first shot off paper into the backstop.

My only other suggestion right now is to reduce the powder instead of increasing it - or try both.  It is no accident that a lot of competitors shoot at 1600 to 1800 fps.

Keep up the good work. It is interesting to follow your progress. 

John

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
frnkeore posted this 23 March 2018

David,

Your on the right tract, if each time you go out, accuracy improves.

50 yard groups are harder to read than 100 yard groups. From your, now improved results, you need to go to 100. Take note of Ken's observation of the first shot and fire a "fouler" or two, before starting groups. Since you have a chronograph, note the vertical dispersion to see if it is from velocity differences. That will show much more at 100. I like <25 fps extreme spreads.

Regarding your rifle, that vintage Remington had excellent workmanship. All my Rem's are that old or older Two things that you can do to improve them are:

1. Take a dollar bill, wrap it around the barrel and slide it down the barrel channel in the stock. If it doesn't go all the way to the receiver (it most likely won't), pull the action and add a paper shim under the front action screw (match book cover is what I use) until it does go all the way. A floated barrel, is much easier to work with for accuracy.

2. The Rem triggers of that vintage, are good ones and can be adjusted. If you know anyone that can do it, have them show you. If not, look up a drawing of the trigger mechanism and adjust the pull screw first, back it off, until you get ~3lb. Then, with a good pad, tap the rifle butt on it and see if the adjustment is safe. Wolffe trigger springs are available, also to lower trigger pull. You can get less than 3lb, safely but, you may have to adjust the sear, too. Use the same test method for that. I can get 1.5lb on most of my Rem bolt rifles w/o the Wolffe springs.

Frank

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
R. Dupraz posted this 23 March 2018

David:

It is interesting to watch your progress  and without a doubt you are making some. I still have a soft spot for those older Remington 700's because of the many that I have had over the years, they were all shooters with jacketed, some amazingly so. This process is not easy or brief and one must be careful not to get the cart ahead of the horse so to speak. You have a good foundation to start with in that older Remington. An orderly process, one thing at a time. 

So, after 50+ yrs. of pulling triggers these are some of my suggestions. 

1.  I hope you meant that you "slugged the throat instead of the "bore to find out it's size. Just to get that out of the way first. 

2.  In answer to my earlier post when I suggested that you check your as cast bullets to see what the diameter was, your reply was     a measured .224"- 226". Too much !  If you are sizing to .225'', some of your bullets may be too small for the throat. All sized bullets need to be of proper size and uniform. Check diameter after sizing. Measure sort the castings and keep all that are at your intended diameter or can be sized to it. This will come as you casting improves. 

3. I would "not" take the barreled action out of the stock, at least not at this point. If this old sporter is putting five jacketed in 1 .25",  that tells me that there can't be too much wrong with the bedding. Some times with an old rifle where the stock and metal have never been parted, and then one does. the accuracy will suffer and be worse. Maybe, it's as good as it's going to get after all these years. Just don't know. Also, the jacketed grouping can be your control. You would just be introducing another variable that you don't now have. Maybe later after you have exhausted everything else and have moved out to 100yds. Just make sure that all screws are tight ie, action, scope mounts, etc.

4. Stay at fifty yards with your load development until you have gotten the smallest groups as are possible. Among other things, it helps to build confidence..

 

Hope this is of use

R.  

    .  

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
David R. posted this 23 March 2018

You should be shooting about 2" groups @ 100 yards...those fifty yards groups are not good crysorry. Have you ever shot jacketed @100 yards with this rifle? What type of Remington is it...is barrel free floated, is barrel clean. What power scope (more power helps)? Lots go into shooting good groups

Have you done a chamber cast or pound cast to see what the throat looks like? This will tell you if chamber is cut strait and how much erosion there is. Bullet Fit is very important.

 

 

Attached Files

David R. posted this 23 March 2018

I may not know the proper procedure for slugging and measuring a rifle. I did in fact push a slug through the entire barrel, from the muzzle back and caught it on a stack of folded towels. It was round and measured .225. At least I confirmed that my first effort with bullets sized .224 were clearly too small and contributed to my fouled bore and sawed off shotgun level of accuracy. 

Attached Files

David R. posted this 23 March 2018

Questions that I am pondering now are: Is it possible that I still have trace amounts of lead fouling in my bore? I've never seen a truly clear, clean patch come out of this thing. I'm wondering if there is still some fouling that I have simply polished repeatedly. I've never had to deal with lead fouling problems before, but my past experience was with mild target loads in revolvers. 

How should I determine my overall cartridge length? I've used two methods so far. Using a gizmo on my cleaning rod and one of my bullets, I first put a tab on my rod with jag against the closed bolt. then, using a piece of dowel, I pushed a bullet in to the chamber until it stopped and then put my jag against that and put another tab on my cleaning rod and measured between the tabs. Later, I simply chambered a dummy round and measured that. 

What is recommended for a crimp. I used a Lee Factory crimp for my first two efforts and no crimp for the third effort. 

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 24 March 2018

Most hardware stores sell fine bronze wool. First push a wet patch down bore, then wrap a little wool around bore brush (solvent soaked) and scrub back and forth about 10 strokes. Follow with a snug fitting bore brush,  then patches. Regular Hoppes #9 will work as solvent. Use a good one piece 36" cleaning rod with good bore guide (possum hollow version is OK) to try and protect throat.

You can seat the bullet longer in case then close the bolt to check OAL. Bullet should be pushed back into case. The 22-250 is a hot round, so you may have some throat erosion. If so, seat the bullets longer and strait/inline as possible.

Back off on powder charge to achieve about 1600fps with quick burning powders. How many grains of Titegroup did you use...or did you use Titegroup? I never had much luck using the 5744...I know the Lyman reloading manual likes it, but.....? 

I use no crimp.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 March 2018

david r.:

just a couple thoughts on the highly complicated problem of cast bullet accuracy: 

first, SIMPLIFY ...reduce the * highly complicated *  to just a half-dozen "" things to keep in mind "" ; these 4 or 7 things will get you to a very usable level of accuracy ... for plinking or hunting ....  many of us here settle at this fun level, and just enjoy shooting our guns and watching bean cans fly.

a reasonable goal would be whatever the gun can shoot with good mj bullets ... plus about 1 moa.  most production deer rifles can ( eventually ) shoot about 2 or 2.5 moa groups using the reduced instruction set ... heh .    and a 2-3 moa gun will give a few 3/4 inch 3 or 5 shot groups ... nice to look at !!

************

actually the first rule is to ask here about anything cast ... oh, btw, if you look over past targets posted here, you will see a lot of 1.5 to 3 moa groups ... and even we " experienced " casters will occasionally see that shotgun pattern you refer to ... myself i can't really explain how that happens even when following all the rules .. well, except the " stay flexible and try again  " rule ( g ) .

on the sizing thing ...strangely, the casting should be a sliding fit in the THROAT .... apparently the distortion caused at ignition by squeezing the bullet down as it enters the smaller groove/bore diameter .... is better than having it expand randomly ( and erratically )  into an loose throat cavity ...     or:  if sized to groove diameter and shot in a larger throat ::  we think the casting first expands randomly to fit the throat anyway and then gets forced back down to groove diameter ... kinda double jeopardy ...

( yep, you are thinking we should make the throat as tight as the groove diameter ::  congrats ! ... that is called a match chamber ...  but production rifles don't come that way ... and if you shoot cba production rules in competition you can't * improve * the chamber .    )

next, to get to this useful 2 moa ... you don't need perfect bullets, perfect powder charges, perfect brass, ... you can burn out spending late hours for nearly zero gain ....  ( now if you happen to get that lucky rifle, lucky mold...and your rig shoots 1.4 moa 50 shot groups right off the start with SIMPLE rules ...   then join the 1/10 per cent and start getting very very picky !! )

again, the most important " suggestion " is ::  fit .. the bullet ideally should be fully supported before firing ... both the rear throat diameter portion and THE NOSE ...  nose fitting is the hardest... because your sizer doesn't size the nose !!! ... how do you get a nice sliding nose seat in the chamber/barrel ?? ...  easiest is to choose a mold that has a nose about right ....  you can buy a custom mold which might get you close ... but it is hard to hold casting variables that close.  currently the best answer is to get a NOE nose sizer ... search the forum ( there is a search button ) ... .  we think if the nose is unsupported it is more likely to slump to one side into the grooves at firing .... and the result is a bent thingie coming out of the muzzle a couple feet later .... ...   flies like a bird with a broken wing ...

cleaning:  while getting to that 2 moa level, just clean gently every 20 shots ... 1 ed's red, 2 brush strokes, one more ed's red ... rarely does squeaky clean help ...  after initial success, you can shoot until the groups grow with that load ... may be 20, may be 200 ...  serious * leading * is rare with any decent cast load ... if you find a factory barrel that is so bad that it significantly leads it will never get " lucky with cast  " anyway ... in 50 years i have never had a barrel " lead " beyond specks with normal loads .


**************

i like to start a project by loading to about 1200-1300 fps ...  keeping simple, i don't use gas checks at this level  ... this lets me get my dies, seating depth etc set and heck sometimes i get good accuracy at these levels and find no reason to go faster .  above 1400-1500  gas checks are usually needed for the 2 moa groups.  since i am merely a lowly plinker anymore, i haven't used gas checks for 18 years ...

note the above simple rules really boil down to:: ... bullet fit ... and a gun that is capable of an accuracy level at which you start having fun ...

ken

oh, triggers ... if you have a 3 lb trigger you can mentally deduct about 1/2 moa from your group size you just shot ... at 1.5 lbs you get no further handicap ( g ) .   somewhere in the 90's remmy sabotaged their 700 triggers to a 6 lb pull ... the factory spring can't be safely adjusted to 1.5 lbs., a lighter spring can let you adjust it correctly.  if in a panic sometimes a clipped ball point spring will work !!

 

 

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 March 2018

bedding :: ... a well bedded rifle can be taken apart and put back together without hurting ACCURACY ... not sure about zero .  by well bedded i mean solid , as in correct stock pillars and recoil feature(s) perfectly fitted ...

i agree that a softly bedded rifle probably gets even worse if you remove it from the stock ... but it will also get worse if you squeeze the fore-end or move your cheek an inch on the shoulder piece ...  or actually, if you shoot it twice in a row ... (cool) ...

wish devcon came in a $4 tube .. you only need a couple ounces ...

ken

 

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 24 March 2018

I think hard powder fouling 2-5" beyond throat is the cause of what seems to be lead fouling and bad accuracy. Cleaner burning powders and the correct balance of lube will help. Too much lube is not good (too slippery), not enough or wrong lube creates more powder fouling. Lately the 45-45-10 tumble lube seems to work well for me.

You can feel the hard powder fouling when pushing the first wet patch down barrel. More fouling equals worse accuracy. Pay attention when cleaning barrel.

Shooting 25 shot strings (5 five shot groups) will tell you when your barrel starts to settle down and when it starts to foul.

I am still learning and sometimes get lucky and find something that shoots good.

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
frnkeore posted this 24 March 2018

I wouldn't worry about pulling a action out of a stock, at all. I float all my bolt guns, if possible, in the way I described. I have never had a rifle shoot worse, that way. As a barrel and action warm, from shooting, You will never know if things are going wrong with the bedding if you don't have the barrel floated. My floating method is not a permanent fix but, if it improved the rifle, it makes it very easy to glass bed it. In general, if a barrel won't shoot floated, it probably won't shoot well, period.

A few years ago, I bought new (take off) 24" sporter weight barrel, off a 700 Rem, in 243 Win to put on my Rem 660 carbine. It actually had the same profile as the 20" barrel that they come with. Floated as above and using a proven load (45 gr H414 w/85 gr jacketed BT) that I developed in my 6mm Rem rifles (not 243 Win), I was able to shoot 4 shot groups of 5/8 - 3/4", with the 5th shot going to about 1/2-3/8" out of the groups at 100 yards. Those results occurring, with 5, five shot groups. The barrel heated a lot from start to finish of the groups. A much more sever testing than cast.

Frank

 

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 24 March 2018

Your 1966 Remington will have a better resale value if you leave it as it came from the factory.

I would first install a higher powered scope (6-20 power) just to see how well it shoots higher powered jacketed. The high Leupold rings and mounts with windage adjustment will work fine. Look for good grouping that does not shift or wander as barrel heats up. Shooting 2 five shot groups should tell.

Make sure both receiver screws are tight (30-40 inch pounds) before testing.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
R. Dupraz posted this 24 March 2018

OU812, I tend to agree. And don't want to hijack David's thread So will try to be brief. Now I can cite theory's, opinions and examples too but what I wrote comes from lessons learned since the mid sixties when trying to get the most accuracy out of a particular handgun or rifle with jacketed or cast.

My M. O. is to start with the most basic simplest things first, in order one at a time and work toward the complicated / drastic. Maybe they will be necessary, maybe not. Don't know yet. The target is the ultimate judge.

It's David's choice to make as to how far he wants to go with that fine old Remington. 

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
David R. posted this 24 March 2018

Thanx guys. 

I was using 8 grains of Tightgroup. I like the idea of backing off a tad and skipping the gas check. 

Question: What is "Ed's Red"? 

How do i determine the condition / size of my throat? 

 

 

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 March 2018

here is a link discussing ed's red .

http://handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=9

a simple throat check is to seat your chosen cast bullet loosely and very long ... chamber it and see how far ( or if ) the throat pushes the bullet back in the case ... that gives you an idea of the length of the throat ... it is often best to seat the bullet out as far as possible ... not always, but often.

the best ... and highly suggested method ... is to create an image of the entire forward part of the chamber including the throat and even a 3/8 inch portion of the rifling ahead of the throat.  this will give you a lot of information .  can/will save you weeks of random trying things that won't work .

use the search button here to look for posts on chamber casting ... chamber images ... cerrosafe ... chamber upset ... pound cast ...

cerrosafe is some neat stuff ... it melts at hairdryer temps and you gently pour the liquid into a pre-heated chamber ....stopping the flow with a wadded patch about 1/2 inch in front of the throat .  let it set up and then push it back out and you can see what your chamber looks like ....  you can order cerrosafe from rotometals, and you can use it over and over ... but i suggest you do a cast for every gun and store it for reference.

* pound casts * involve upsetting soft lead in the area of the front of the neck and into the rifling ...  i put a spacer rod into an empty case so i don't need so much lead and chamber the case  ... the soft lead should be a soft rod  seated in the neck and extends an inch or better up the throat before you tap it from the muzzle with a brass or aluminum rod ( softer than barrel but don't bugger a good cleaning rod  ) ... use about a hundred little taps rather than 5 giant hammer blows .  this gives a good image also; i keep soft lead wire around for this purpose , you can use 22 rimfire bullets also , melted into a rod shape first .

hope this helps.  ken

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
David R. posted this 25 March 2018

I think hard powder fouling 2-5" beyond throat is the cause of what seems to be lead fouling and bad accuracy. Cleaner burning powders and the correct balance of lube will help. Too much lube is not good (too slippery), not enough or wrong lube creates more powder fouling. Lately the 45-45-10 tumble lube seems to work well for me.

You can feel the hard powder fouling when pushing the first wet patch down barrel. More fouling equals worse accuracy. Pay attention when cleaning barrel.

Shooting 25 shot strings (5 five shot groups) will tell you when your barrel starts to settle down and when it starts to foul.

I am still learning and sometimes get lucky and find something that shoots good.

I suspect that you are on to something here. It is often difficult for me to push the first patch through. I have some unsized bullets with only one coat of 45-45-10 that I'm thinking that I will load next and see how it goes. 

 

Attached Files

David R. posted this 25 March 2018

Thank you Ken. I wasn't familiar with any of this, but it makes perfect sense. I stay busy as a  one armed paper hanger, but I will certainly take some time  to research this and share my progress. 

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 25 March 2018

 

 Until that bore is cleaned of fouling, both powder and copper, which it likely is, and you then determine  what size bullet will fill the throat, everything else you try will be wasted effort.

I have a pristine old Remington 722 222 Remington. And when I got it years ago, the bore was so fouled it took me a couple of days to get it clean. Turned out that it is now one of the most accurate rifles that I have ever owned. 

 

R.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
John Alexander posted this 25 March 2018

 Thanx guys. 

I was using 8 grains of Tightgroup. I like the idea of backing off a tad and skipping the gas check. 

===========

I suspect you don't need this reminder but -- If you want to tell if a smaller charge shoots better don't leave off the gas check as well. That should be a separate test.  One variable change at a time is best.

John 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
  • M3 Mitch
David R. posted this 27 March 2018

Cerrosafe ingots on order. I'm going to work on soaking and cleaning in the meantime. 

Attached Files

M3 Mitch posted this 28 March 2018

Almost certainly, a used 22-250 will come with some copper fouling in the bore, which, I have read in more than one place, needs to be cleaned out before the rifle will do it's best cast bullet shooting.

You might want to consider the bore-polishing technique that onondaga has developed.  Instructions are on here, but I am not certain how to direct you to them.

 

But, first things first, use your favorite copper solvent until the patches are no longer green or blue when you push them out the muzzle.

I have to agree with "leaving well enough alone" on this old Remington.  I'd limit work to cleaning, and maybe a card shim to "free float" the barrel.  A glass bedding job might make it shoot somewhat more accurately, but, yeah, it will not help collector value at all.  Springing for a 6.5X20 Leopold might be worth doing, if for some strange reason you don't like the scope, you can sell it on and get almost all your money back.  But my money is on "try it, you'll like it!".

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
David R. posted this 28 March 2018

Thanx Mitch. I don't plan to do anything to the rifle at this point. I actually like the old scope okay. It's not the best I've used, but not the worst either. I wouldn't mind having the trigger be a tad lighter, but that isn't a priority right now. I've got it soaking with Kroil at the moment, but I may switch to copper solvent after I give this a scrub. I plan to make it a daily ritual until I can get a truly clean patch out of it. 

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 28 March 2018

Lots of videos on YouTube show how to adjust Remington trigger.

JB Bore paste will do a quicker job of removing copper...or making it more smooth. Muck like sanding bondo on a car body. Some believe copper fouling can be a good thing...up to a point.

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 March 2018

david R. ...

if you get blue/green patches after solvent soaking ... soak and scrub some more.   but if the patches are just dark, you are just looking at some steel from your barrel ... you can quit now .     even worse with stainless ....

also, it helps to wrap your bore brush with 4000 grade steel wool ... won't hurt barrel at all .... just gives a grip on the crud in the barrel .... same with real brass wool if you can find it ...   same with the original JB compound ....

( just for fun i once shot a thousand rounds of jb sprinkled 22 rimfire through a match barrel ... just got shinier and same accuracy ......and no throat advancement ...  not recommending that but cleaning with JB isn't going to harm anything real soon  ... )

oh, i set my remmy 722 trigger to 1.5 lbs in 1956 .... wore out a sear but never had an AD in 60,000 rounds .  but i never chambered until the shot ...

keep us informed on your 22 adventures ... nice to see more and more 22 targets ...  i got out some of my old ones from 1980-81 ... i made a swage to make 22 wadcutters: made neatest holes in the target paper !! ...

ken

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
David R. posted this 28 March 2018

Thanx Ken, this is encouraging. I have been using Kroil with JB Bore cleaner and afterwards a swab with only Kroil. My patches end up with just a touch of darkness on them so perhaps I have gotten it good and clean. I'm an obsessive - compulsive gun cleaner. If I've been to the range I don't sleep until guns are cleaned or at least have been swabbed and soaking over night until I can clean them properly. I also use JB Bore Bright and swab and clean again. It's shiny in there I can assure you. 

Attached Files

David R. posted this 28 March 2018

I use JB products and like them. I may actually have this thing cleaner than I know. My patches just show a touch of darkness so maybe I'm actually cleaning metal out by now. 

Attached Files

David R. posted this 28 March 2018

I want to thank GP Idaho for the tip about the book. I received my copy and just read Carl Johnson’s article on the 22-250. Worth the price of the book! I’m excited to see that the mold I’m using is the one that produced the best results.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
OU812 posted this 28 March 2018

You will need a higher powered scope for serious target shooting. The single powered Leupold series are verygood and requires no seperate high powered spotting scope to see bullet holes. So get off that wallet. smile

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
Close